Board Thread:Role Ideas (Town)/@comment-28047203-20180219062059/@comment-28112409-20180302080609

Idelac wrote: Vertroyer wrote:

2nd potion, the DEF one. Why this even exists, I don't know. All I need to do is to just place any TP (except Crusader) next to this just to show how useless it can be. Take Doctor for example. He already faces a difficulty trying to predict the correct targets for the enemy killers so he can get value out his healing despite him being able to heal every night, providing powerful defense AND having a self-heal. In some games, a Doctor contributes absolutely nothing no matter how skilled he is. '''*Facepalm* How many times did I have to say this? Giving the Doc the DEF potion doesn't make them unkillable, since they have no DEF. Although I assume you mean that they'd self-heal, it would fail since they would get Invincible DEF. The Bartender wouldn't get a notification that it failed, though, because then it'd make it obvious.'''

I thought it was only the people saying this role was a Town PM who were terrible at reading. Since the point flew right over your head, I'll simplify the explanation. The Doctor is a better protector than the Bartender, the Bartender's protection is shit. I think I got the message through.

If a dedicated protection role like a Doc faces difficulty in protection during some games, what makes you think a potion giving Basic defense that protects once every 2 nights AT BEST would do any better? '''See response where I mention "Neutral Benign". Although you may think this role would win with everyone and guarantees a win, you'd need to be ALIVE to win. '''

See previous response in case point still flew over your head. This was posted when the role was still a Town Support.

SKs, Mafia, Vamps, some of the Coven. The only enemies you do anything against with that potion, presuming you even get to get the timing AND target right. Everything else obliterates right through. The Bartender's protection abilities aren't even up to the level of "jack of all trades", it's straight up garbage. A doc is all I need. '''What would you expect? I wasn't aiming to make it EXACTLY like the Doc.'''

Thanks Captain Obvious, another point flying right over your head. My point wasn't that it isn't good enough like the Doc. My point was that it's protection isn't good enough even for a supposed multipotent role.

Even when you do succeed, the value of the contribution can be so miniscule unless it's an important role that you've protected from said effect, such as a Jailor executing a confirmed evil. Why is this even an option? You waste 2 nights to stop 1 roleblock/control? Even with a 100% success rate, this is just not worth the trade. Why bother stop an RB/control when I can go for saving a townie and preserving a unit of votepower for my faction? '''What if an important Townie is confirmed? The Mafia wold think that there would be a TP on them, so they'd send their Consort/BMer after them. Provided they are not jailed, and your immunity potion is ready to use, you can save them. And I have a reason for one block only: Wouldn't that be OP?'''

I've stated later that the situation where this role can be sueful is very specific and extremely rare. That problem is still there, you did not fix it, I still stand by that point.

Final advice to you, is to never try making a "jack of all trades" role for Town, ever. It just won't work the way Town's job allocation works. Townies should be given abilities that let them contribute to the Town through one type of method. Just because the Support alignment exists, doesn't mean it'd be a good idea to make it a mix of nerfed things and call it "Support". The Bartender not just as a role, but as a concept too, won't fit in the faction. '''It doesn't fit in any other Town alignment. Protective is debatable, but because it can do MORE than a TP, that's what probably lands it in the TS.'''

I'd like to bring your attention to the part where it says "The Bartender not just as a role, but as a concept too, won't fit in the faction". It doesn't fit in the Town to begin with.

P.S No, Jailor is not a "mix of everything" role. Even if he was, we don't need more of them.

But still, if you still hate this, I can delete this suggestion, if you want.

Why are you perceiving my criticism as a rant and my tone as hate? Criticism =/= rant or hate. TLDR'd? Here's a summary:

ATK Potion now only works on kill-capable roles, unless you hit the Jailor. Targets don't get notified. This might be a Neutral Benign role now, I haven't really decided. Decide on whether this will be NB or something else. I will view it again once it's set in stone =P