Board Thread:Role Ideas (Coven)/@comment-28092296-20180922144925/@comment-27575896-20180926023044

TheRetroPioneer wrote: @ZedKiller

I am not just looking to see if my changes are good/bad, but also how to fix them and make them better. I would appreciate it if you also gave me feedback to improve, or just to revert changes to the default role. You did make helpful suggestions, but most were suggestions that I didn't make good changes without a way to change them.

Here are some things you missed:

- You are rude in giving feedback and as somebody with the tag "VETERAN [ADMINISTRATOR]" being angry or rude does not reflect the wiki well

You'' may take it as being rude but I'm being straightforward. These nerfs may equalize the barriers but isn't the point of the Coven to diminish the Town and Mafia winrates? This is basically the reverse of adding the entire Mafia after the Coven, everyone would say they are extremely underpowered.''

- "'''The role should always mess asround with this, removing it just confirms the Hex Master instantly. Oh, HM result while theres no vamps and jester is dead. Must be framer/HM, instant lynch. This gives them zero claimspace by removing it." '''I'd suggest an invest result change for the Hex Master instead, then?

The Hex Master needs no result change, its ability with the Framer should stay the same for claiming a role.

- "'''Not only does this negate and instantly prove who ISN'T coven, it also confirms a HM exists. Gamemodes like VIP mode or Ranked Practice is a devastation to this." '''Maybe if Hypnotist gains the ability to screw around with things this would be different? I mean, you could make the same argument with the Blackmailer or Spy's visit tracker, but that's not a big issue in most people's eyes. I would suggest that we alter the actual VIP and Ranked gamemodes themselves and have the Hex Master be balanced in All Any/Normal mode.

The Hypnotist already screws around with things and can be confirmed pretty easily. The only thing you could alter in VIP mode is to find a way to force Townies to have a lesser overall effect on the Coven, maybe by taking out certain roles and adding a Neutral Killing or other evils in its place.

-"'''The Potion Master is more accurate than a Consigliere because it involves magic and it makes sense overall since you have a long cooldown. Healing should not be removed whatsoever." '''That ignores the necronomicon ability and I did not remove healing. However, this feedback has been taken into considering. Maybe just change the necronomicon ability?

Meant to infer how healing still has a cooldown of three nights. Games last 5-7 nights, one night to heal someone or maybe a possible Coven is pretty useless, especially if they need to be healed twice in a row. The Necronomicon ability is perfectly balanced as is, you can choose to become a nightly killer, a nightly investigator, or a fake doctor to act as cover.

-"'''This is a major nerf, forcing the Potion Master to copy the Mafioso-type of trend with constant kills, which YOU have stated to not directly relate to the Mafia in any way." '''You can alternate between healing and revealing, actually. If an every-other-day cooldown, you aren't forced to kill, or even attack at all.

You aren't forced to but refraining from doing so will cause you to lose instantly, especially with multiple investigative roles. In late game, healing should not be focused on unless there are important Coven that need to stay alive and need to do risky moves to win. Revealing, since it's better than a Consigliere, should have a normal cooldown but obviously with the Necronomicon can be every night.

-"Hey let's nerf the Medusa to become a killing Forger, cause that's useful. When a role is killed it narrows down what is left. Having secrecy is NEEDED." Regardless of the fact that Forgers can choose what their wills say, the point of this nerf was to make Medusa weaker and less like a Janitor

I get that, but there isn't much need. To be honest, both roles are in some ways equal:

The Medusa deals a Powerful attack and stones them, but has no way of knowing their role and relies soley on direct visits to kill.

The Janitor knows the role AND will of the target yet relies on kills to be successful, which are Basic attacks and not Powerful from a Mafioso/Godfather. It also will instantly confirm their cleaned target as a more likely Townie, while a Medusa can stone anyone and there isn't a way to know since they can be town/mafia/a visiting, non-killing neutral.

​​​​​-"'''Useless, I'd rather have it so poisons can't be seen once you have Necro AND can't be healed." '''Makes sense, I can change that if most people oblige with your feedback here

-"If you rely on controlling killers to win, this basically means "okay controlling bob into jailor, oh now i cant control him so he kills me, sweet" Generally, once a CL controls a killer, they don't stop controlling that killer. You can use deathnotes (if I added those) or make a town claim to get around this. If you don't like this, please propose a solution.

It shouldn't require a nerf on the Coven to prevent Neutral Killing roles from killing normally, it should rely on that killer themselves to work around it. In high town games, the CL may not reveal that killer since they need overall kills, and if the killer gets the CL lynched, more than likely that killer gets revealed on the CL. Nerfs should not be based around judgemental decisions based on who is left alive, and rather if the role is simply too overpowered in multiple or one way. Whether it's to negate a minor issue, it's a MINOR issue, and it should be left at that. Actions should be taken if they severly cause an issue or a complete gameplay change.

-"This is just a major nerf to the Coven overall that completely ruins what makes the Coven the Coven. The Coven can have similarities to the Mafia, but the factions are different in terms of use" The Coven is focused around killing, yes, but they should not be a rehash of roles like Doctor, Consigliere and Arsonist. They should be unique, and they still should have some utilization with their faction communicating abilities. I do take this sentence into consideration.

'''​​​​​​​The Mafia are more related to Townies than normal, look at the Consort and Consigliere. Most of them aren't direct rehashes or aren't "rehashes" at all, they have some similar abilities and that's about it. The Hex Master can't ignite people and just hexes them. The Potion Master SHOULD have those similar abilities because it allows for basic claimspace and allows it to be a true Coven role.'''