Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20171002223259/@comment-31680260-20171003235131

Addfire wrote: RubikJohn wrote: TEAM COVENI think the coven has some pretty powerful roles. I don't think you can deny that, and so does mafia, but I feel the mafia also has a good few weak roles.

Framer: Bloody hell, this role is   t e r r i b l e   and I'm sure we all know why. If you dont, just imagine a mafia role that has a tiny chance to target a person who is visited, and the visitor needs to be a specifically a TI. Sure, it has unlimited uses, but the actual ability is so weak the role is basically only a vote for the team. And when the TIs die? Does he change into a useful role? Nope. becomes a completely useless mafia member. I think we can all agree that the coven doesn't have any roles exactly or at least similar to this work of art. Some may not be as good as others, but none are so useless.

'''Of course it's useless! Everyone knows that! And that means two things: One, that a BMG fix is in the works to make it bigger and better (we can agree that a reverse Framer would be OP) and because of point one you can have point Two: It brings the comunity together to work on a fix, and strengthens the community. '''

(For you to say Fire is missing the point is kinda ironic, since you missed it here. "The community" doesn't contribute to which faction is a better enemy. Sure, it might get buffed in the future, but we're talking about the current Framer and the current Framer sucks.)

Forger: How bloody ironic, I'm ranting about my own tag. Though this role is interesting, and you probably are already typing up ar reply about how you carried as forger, you have to remember that not all ToS players are... well, amazing, This role is rather difficult to use, but if used correctly, it can be useful. That's exactly why I'm not comparing it to the above. It's not one of the greatest mafia roles, and I also know its not thaaaat bad, but if this was a coven role, it would be one of the, if not the weakest, in my opinion, especially played by the average player, which needs to be taken into consideration.

'''You can say that about literally all roles ever! To name a couple on the Coven side, though... Coven Leader, Hex Master, Poisoner.'''

(It does indeed apply to every role. I suggest the judges ignore this bit.)

Consort: All I have to say is that you'd think a mafia version of a town role would be at least a bit better than the escort, but I guess not. This one is also not terrible, but neither I or my teammates jump from joy when we have a consort on our team, especially when combinged with one of the other great mafia roles.

'''A well coordinated consort is extremely effective. If there's a TI, well, a consort is literally the ultimate checkmate! That and blackmailer but not even blackmailer as much...'''

(Coven's got the CL, which can act as a Coven Consort if you play it right. Just send the Investigator to itself. When you've got the Necronomicon, you don't need to worry about that Invest anymore since he'll be six feet underground.)

Disguiser: Again, difficult to understand, and still not the worst, but not a perfect role of the mafia. Just like the consort, this role is not a reason to celebrate if you find this one on your team. '''Though I think this role could have especially varied opinions, unlike some role like the framer, which I'm sure we can all agree on. (Damn right we can agree on that.)'''

Mafioso: Cool role lore-wise, but not the best in-game. It's main purpose is to buff the godfather, and though that is a nice touch, it makes it pretty UP. It's an extra vote, and you can give it the fact that it can turn into a Godfather, but most of the time you die first, since the mafioso is the one visiting. '''Fair point, but the best players are able to make sacrifices, and that's true for any game. While most players will not understand that, Mafioso can be invaluable. Besides, most good games (NOT FRAMER) are decided not by the roles but the people playing them. I just came out of a ret game where I managed to corrall the town into lynching the mafioso and werewolf early on.'''

(You said most good games (NOT FRAMER) are decided not by the roles... you're contradicting yourself a bit there. And then you went on to say how you DEFEATED the Mafioso...)

It's not really every game when you find yourself with a consigliere and janitor on your team, and I'd say the above roles put the mafia far behind the coven. And mind you, this is only a few of the mafia roles, and I assure you most of the others are only a little better than this disgrace.

And since there are 11 mafia roles, the above 5 are completely or almost completely useless the others, such as hypnotist or blackmailer and ambusher still aren't great. This puts the mafia's good role count up to...'3. '3  ok  roles and 5 roles varying from pretty bad to ultra bad.

'''For three of the above, you actually said something along the lines of 'this role isn't too bad'. So, actually, that's 2 that you claim are completely or almost completely useless. Then we have mafioso, which is not useless in the slightest. Hypnotist is extremely powerful, ambusher gives mafia an extra kill, and blackmailer is... one of my top 5 favorite roles.'''

Good roles by your definition:

Godfather

Consigliere

Janitor

As an addendum:

Blackmailer

Ambusher

Consort

Forger

I'll probably comment on how most, almost all roles of the coven are a lot better than... those, later. (To Rubik)