Board Thread:Role Ideas (Neutral)/@comment-30255850-20171015211902/@comment-27804907-20171021163334

Addfire wrote:

This role specifically is a bad example, because I do think that you can't really defend this role. Hobo roles aren't allowed, and Survivor is a good role that doesn't need to be changed. Of course the creator can refute points - if I'm wrong about a role, I'd love to know! I think i originally rejected the Spud, for example, until it was re-balanced in a way I didn't expect.

My 'final verdict' is only a final verdict for that role. If they thought it would make a survivor rework (which we don't know for sure, in fact it's unlikely), well, I rejected this role, not the rework.

However, bad roles should be put down. Say I see a Firefighter - should I engage the creator? No. That role can't be fixed, it's simply a bad role. You need to give a verdict. You don't think they can defend it? That's a problem there. You think this role is clearly bad, but they don't. That means they have some reason to think it's good. Therefore, they most likely can defend it. Even if they're "wrong" about what they say, you can help them realize that. Hobo roles aren't allowed? So what? What if they believe that kind of role should be in the game? Simply telling them "No, that's bad. This is bad. Stop talking, my verdict is final"(The last part is implied by the obnoxious rejection - it might as well just say "SHUT UP, I'M NOT LISTENING ANYMORE".) doesn't help anybody learn. Tell them why it's bad. Don't just expect them to understand why. They clearly don't understand why if they posted the role. If they don't know what makes something bad, they might take those bad aspects and use them somewhere else - it wont be a Hobo role, but it will have similar flaws that could have been corrected here.

You rejected this role. Even if they say "Hey, what if it's a Survivor rework, then?" it would still be this role, the one that you rejected. The discussion would most likely take place in this thread itself, just because it's practically the same idea. So your final verdict isn't so final over this topic, since you would be discussing it with only a slight change - replacing Survivor. That doesn't change how this role is balanced, it changes nothing about the role itself. The role would still be the role you rejected without explaining why it's a bad concept. "It's too similar to Survivor" is pretty broad, you can easily narrow it down. "The goal can't be like that. The role doesn't have a profound impact on the game. It's too easy." You can also talk about the role itself, other than the similarities with Survivor.

Bad roles should be put down, yes. By the creator. Not you. You don't have the right to tell them their idea is trash and just expect them to drop it. If you see a Firefighter, explain to them why it's bad - assuming it's not a joke - because they clearly don't know why it's not a good idea. You don't need to give a verdict. As a reviewer, it is your sole job to give feedback, not decide the fate of the role. There are only a few people who can decide the fate of a role - BMG, and the creator. The creator can stop updating the role and let it die. BMG can put the role in the game, or they can decide that it's not what they want for ToS. You, and any other reviewers? You can influence the role, but your verdict is only a suggestion, so it's not nearly final unless the creator wants it to be. It's just an obnoxious show of power that you don't possess. You have no power over this role unless the creator decides to listen to you. You could easily shut it down here, and tell them it's rejected without saying why. Then they can take it to the forums, where there are some helpful people - and some that need to learn to review properly too, I wont lie - that will actually take time to explain why the role is bad. They'll help that creator grow into something better, and not just some poor sod who has no idea why they were turned down by people unwilling to tell why they were turned down. Maybe there are people here who will put in all of the effort to review properly, and I just haven't seen them yet. But if there are, then you shouldn't try. If you can't put in proper effort and explain why something is flawed - like Firefighter, your own example - then why should you post at all? You're not helping nearly as much as you think you are, and surely someone else will come along to properly review the role. You have no obligation to review a role, in fact, it's better not to if you think you get to decide which roles are worthy of discussion, and which are just canned and rejected without helping the creator learn.