Thread:Thatsmuggamer/@comment-31680260-20180411084950/@comment-27398195-20180414085849

Jallybwan wrote: Hex Master in relation to the Mafia is a better Framer, COMBINED with an Arsonist. All your Framer does is make someone look bad for one night. HM makes them look bad for the rest of the game, PLUS an added auto-win for Coven if they pull off all hexes.

'''The arsonist is a slow AF killer that slowly douses it's targets, the exact same way the hex master is. However, the framer has one ability that the hex master does not, deception. If there is a spy in the game, the framer can do many things to f**k with said Spy, he can randomly visit people to seem like the consigliere, he can also choose not to frame people to look like the forger, janitor or ambusher(who didn't instantly alt+F4). And what is ToS? A game of deception. His ability is so bad that you can use it for mindgames.'''

The Medusa is a Veteran that exchanges defense for the ABILITY OF YOUR JANITOR. That's not "s**t in every way" and you know it.

'''Let us not forget that a strategy is to use the CL+Medusa to clean someone and kill them every night. You could get unlucky and get shot by a killing role, such as the vigilante. Not only that, but it is LAUGHABLE compared to veteran as it can be roleblocked by an escort, consort or pirate.'''

Then it becomes a Mafioso + Janitor COMBO by itself. (Doesn't get rampage, but I don't see your GF killing everyone in sight. At least Medusa can kill someone with defense.)

"The Necronomicon allows you to visit people and turn them and ANYONE that visits them to stone. Use this to kill enemy night immune roles like the Godfather, and other Neutral Killing roles."

CL is Witch until it gets the Necronomicon, at which point it becomes an SK with Witch abilities added in. Still better than your Mafia roles. ALSO, it can act as a Consigliere, which you claim is the best role in the Mafia.

'''However, the coven leader is a more obvious role compared to a consigliere. Town's are going to be more on guard about TI claims when there's a CL around.'''

Poisoner does need a buff, I agree. But it does serve in distracting the Doctor, which lets the Coven get on with their killing uninterrupted. None of your roles can distract a TP other than the Consort, and she needs to know exactly who the TP is anyway (at which point you'd just kill them).

'''That only happens if you get the 25% chance of doc being TP, any other TP doesn't have to care. (or the 3 ~5% chances of doc being RT)'''

I won't dispute that the invest results aren't the best, but:


 * Your GF is basically forced into claiming BG if no townies have been killed by Crusader. BG is a VERY well-known GF claim.

'''False if it is an arsonist game, where the godfather can claim basically any Town role available. And if there's a hex master and the GF gets hexed the same is followed.'''


 * Mafioso either claims Vigilante (another useless claim if someone asks you to prove it) or Veteran (a unique role that can be easily counter-claimed, or even just straight-up disproven when someone asks you to alert).

'''However, not many roles would willing risk killing themselves over trying to confirm the vigilante. You would have to hope for someone to confirm a non-immune mafia or the jester.'''


 * Janitor has to claim MEDIUM of all roles, and you already know Medium claims are never trusted. Real Mediums can easily disprove them. The only other claim is Retri, and I shouldn't have to explain why it's a bad claim.

'''However, a janitor is more LIKELY to get away compared to a necromancer. If there is a cleaned/hexed role, the janitor can say "Dead say that X is ___" Compared to Necro having to completely randomly guess if there's a cleaned/stoned.'''


 * Ambusher's phucked no matter what it tries to claim because of the name-revealing thing.

And thank god that can BE fixed eventually


 * A Consort is forced to claim Escort (since Transporter requires people to come forward and say they were transed), and any half-decent Spy can disprove them by looking at visits.

This is of course if there IS a spy, which is a 1/4 to 1/6 depending on Mafia or Coven


 * Blackmailers have to claim Spy, since the other options are Jailor (phuck no) and GA (need to prove yourself by protecting someone).

Fair enough there.


 * Disguiser basically doesn't have a result, and it doesn't even know what its new result is. So if it's questioned, there's no way it can make a claim that pleases the Investigator.

Unless Disg decides to pay attention to claims during the day and chooses to counter claim, visiting that person to waste the TIs time by 1/2 nights.


 * Forger has to claim Lookout, and people know whether or not they visited someone on the night specified. Even if they don't go with visiting, a will full of "no visitors" is suspicious as heck.

Once again true.


 * Don't have to explain Framer.

Already explained why framer can possibly be a good role, in fact I'm actually going to post a possible strategy in a blog.


 * Hypnotist can potentially claim Transporter, except for one thing. It can only make one person think they were transported per night. So it's still a bad claim. Also, most roles will know whether or not they were actually role-blocked (if you try and claim Escort) just by the information a lot of them receive from doing their abilities. TI's are all out, for example, so if you try and claim you roleblocked one of them you're instantly dead.

A hypnotist can claim to be transporting themselves or another member of the mafia, both have their risks and rewards.