Board Thread:News and Announcements/@comment-25646419-20181212134658/@comment-28112409-20181218081443

They don't have to be considered and it wouldn't be stupid if they weren't. Yes you can nerf/buff a role for Ranked and expect it to work in the casual game modes because of 3 things: Community adjustment, game mode changes, and the trickle-down balance effect.

You can't go saying that Custom will be affected by Ranked because the community always adjusts accordingly to any changes a role receives all in conjunction with the freedom of rolelist creation they've been given. Enjoyable rolelists can still be made, balanced rolelists can be made, etc. Custom has never really suffered from any role changes because of how much freedom it allows for the community in terms of game creation, and the community utilizes this to adjust their games to be more entertaining. As a result, Custom is fine and remains fine as long as no role is singularly gamebreaking and there is none of such a thing. All Any's performance is extremely muddy and faces little to no issue with the community because once again, all the players are aware that entering such a chaotic game mode is capable of yielding unbalanced or unfun matches regardless of what roles get included and how powerful said roles are. The community has long been adjusted to these terms, and you'd be a bloody nuthead if you seriously expect consistently balanced compositions from All Any. These two game modes cannot be ruined at all by role changes.

Then there's game mode changes, which applies to Dracula's Palace and Classic. If a role is so drastically changed that it makes a certain game mode unfun to play or wildly unbalanced, the developers are capable of changing the damn game mode rather than going through the hassle of trying to adjust a role to both a casual and competitive setting, which we've seen them do by replacing Vigilantics with Dracula's Palace since Witches would simply steamroll Vigilantes so easily. If another event where a role change ruins a game mode completely is to occur, the developers are more than capable of slightly adjusting a game mode to become balanced once more or completely replace the game mode with something freshly made and entertaining for the playerbase. Neither of these game modes can really be ruined for such reasons.

Then there's trickle-down balance, which is basically when a role with the highly skilled players does fine then it will consequently be fine with lower skill players too. Town of Salem is still a game with skill that can be learned, specifically gamesense. You can't go nerfing Arsonist against Jailor because Joe Schmoe over here didn't realize that Unstoppable attacks beat Powerful defenses. Schmoe just needs to get good, and the slow build up of his game sense will eventually cause him to migrate from a casual game mode when he realizes that he wants a game mode where roles truly serve a purpose and can be seen with real potential and that these casual game modes he's playing are not suitable for him any more. He is then directed to Ranked Practice and possibly Ranked too, where the balanced rolelist satisfies his need for a proper game setting. Players that don't care about balance at any given moment can also go down to any one of the 4 casual game modes and play whatever while goofing around, not necessarily being as tryhard as a competitive player. Both player types/desires are satisfied and there's no need for the tedious orgy of shitfuck that is balancing a role for all game modes as if all of them are equal since they're obviously not.

Adjusting a game based on a player's ignorance and whining is an absolute disaster. You should not dumb down the game for the Joe Schmoes because you are harming the learning curve, the longevity of a player's interest in the game and ultimately the competitive game mode. If we considered casual game modes into the balancing of a role while completely ignoring the fact that said game modes can be adjusted/the game modes would not face a problem with the role changes to begin with, all you'll end up doing is harming the competitive scene for no good reason in addition to "fixing" up a role for a game mode that is already fixed up to receive this change. It ultimately becomes a waste of the developers' time and can ruin the state of Ranked even further for absolutely no legitimate reason. Roles should be balanced based on Ranked, and then the casual game modes can be adjusted later.

Now, why the fucking fuck are you still talking about a role's performance in All Any? Have we not acknowledged yet that the power level of any given role is inconsistent and widely various with every rolelist All Any can produce? All Any should NEVER be considered when talking about any sort or level of balance whatsoever, period. No one gives two flying tarnations about how Ret performs in All Any when it comes to balance.

The role changed will not be less used, you have no damning evidence to support such a claim. You can't control what roles are used and not used in Classic, All Any and Dracula's Palace for one. For two, nerfs do not absolutely ruin a role for every game mode and buffs wouldn't exactly achieve less usage when it makes said role better and more interesting to use. Once again, Custom's community are not a bunch of idiots, they are capable of adjusting their rolelists depending on the role changes and they will still find a way to make any changed role enjoyable within the suitable setting. Not only that, but Custom hosts commonly use alignments instead of specific roles to allow for claimspace and more interesting gameplay than a Classic 2.0 one, which then means that a changed role can still come about and will still be used regardless of a player's opinion on it.

"Garbage rules" is a subjective term and varies from one player to another. I have not the slightest idea what garbage rules you're even talking about. I also have not the slightest clue where you got the "dying after rez" part for Ret. I want a reference or a source for that if it's a confirmed change to the game, because you pulled that crap out of your ass otherwise.

Yes you did use the Arso example to support your point. You said and I quote: "adding changes to help ranked, kinda like the Arsonist buff, isn't always a good thing." You used an example right alongside a point you've mentioned, how is that not supporting your point? Dafuq did you bring up the Arsonist example for if it wasn't for supporting your point?

You've completely missed the point of the rolelist I've described. It's not an explanation, it's an example of an unbalanced rolelist that is possible to find in the game mode. This example or another example, doesn't matter. Point is, the possibilities for unbalanced rolelists are insurmountable and the extreme swinginess of a role's power in that game mode is still there, making All Any still the least reliable game mode to use for judging balance in the game. Your game experiences do not generalize to the experiences of everyone else, All Any is still purely decided by RNG with only a few restrictions that still allow for extremely unbalanced rolelists in great quantities. Even if the numbers happened to be just right and well balanced, that doesn't guarantee the alignments and the overall composition of any faction is balanced properly for a fair game. Stop attempting to defend a Chaos game mode's importance for balance consideration especially when the rolelist has 15 goddamn Anys.

Three of the same role is only one of the enormous amount of things that can cause a rolelist to be unbalanced, it doesn't have to be specifically this feature that ruins the game's fairness. None of the statistics or things you are telling me are factual or properly recorded anywhere. If I don't get a proper source for all these claims, I am discarding your subjective number guesses entirely.

I dunno where that 4-role cap rule came from. It is mentioned nowhere in the All Any game mode. The only factions I know so far that follow this rule are Vampires, Mafia and Coven. If you're talking about Custom's rules applying to All Any, the role cap is 6, not 4. There's also no proof as far as I can see that Custom's rules apply to All Any as well. Even if the 4-role cap rule was real, that doesn't stop the game from being wildly unbalanced. The 4-role cap is like throwing a piece of paper into an erupting volcano and seriously expecting that said volcano will be suppressed by the paper. Nonsense.

Your guessing is irrelevant and your experiences once again do not generalize to everyone else's. All Any is objectively based on RNG on an objectively large scale and your subjective guesses have absolutely nothing to do with that.