Board Thread:Role Ideas (Rework)/@comment-37421692-20181221025145/@comment-37421692-20190105174334

Vertroyer wrote: This is quite the late post, but I'm not letting bullshit just go after I've already smelled it in a thread.

 Coven Leader 

The CL's "issues" are not really issues but more like picking out random details and passing them off as problematic. It can permanently control a kill role. Yes, and? The only role it can do that to is the NK, and spamming over the NK is neglecting the bigger enemy and occupying yourself with that one NK completely even though you already are a consistent killer from N1 onwards in conjunction with a Medusa. So what's the problem here exactly?

Necronomicon's purpose flew over your head. Its purpose is to turn a role into a consistent source of KPN. Whether the other abilities work or not is irrelevant, they're just a bonus. Trading the investigation ability for consistent killing that doesn't depend on a Medusa using her gazes is balanced, there's nothing really wrong with that and I don't see the problem with it.

Annoying to play against? Are you unironically serious? You are more than aware that every single role in this game can be annoying to play against one way or another, right? If you're mafia, Sheriff is annoying. If you're Janitor, Medium is annoying. If you're not Town, Jailor is annoying. If you're Jailor, Arsonist is annoying. If you're Vig, Witch is annoying. All roles can be annoying, so saying that CL too can be annoying doesn't exactly mean anything.

The suggestion, is consequently trash. What you're telling me basically is that because you're whining about it, and because it can control an NK forever among the many various things a CL can do, that we should kill the versatility of the role to plan with the other Coven and lock it down to one choice it has to force down the other members' throats or forcing them to use whispers for said planning. You're buffing and nerfing mechanics that are already pretty well balanced for petty reasons. The inability to control the same person twice in a row doesn't solve any actual problems, nor does the slight Necronomicon change.

 Poisoner 

Poisoner is OP? Really? Well, no. First off, you can't kill on N1 with the Poisoner because of the delay the poison has, so that's already a bit of a setback. Second off, poisoning someone proves that they're not Coven even if it is for that one day, which causes people to claim publicly and post their wills, and that could assist in the PoE (Process of Elimination) or the lynching of an evil on that same day. Third off, Poisoner can still be killed by protectives other than Doctor because a Poisoner's visit still counts as a harmful one as far as I know. Doctor getting more of a chance to counter the Poisoner does not make the other protectives worthless.

Even though it enables multi-killing more for Coven, it is exchanging quite a bunch of things for that multikilling capability, which equalizes the significant advantages and makes it balanced.

Then you proceed to contradict yourself and say that it's UP with the Necronomicon. The Necronomicon does nothing but buff a Coven role, so how does it suddenly turn from OP to UP after the buff? What you meant to really say was that the Necronomicon buff itself was too weak for the Poisoner. To that I say, you still don't know what the Necronomicon is for. It's there for kill consistency, not power.

So what do you do to nerf Poisoner? You make the TPs counter it more than they already do to every killer out there, and you make Doctor, the hardcounter to this role, even more of a hardcounter. Neither of these make the slightest bit of sense. The Necronomicon buff doesn't solve much either. The hiding of the poisoned message is the only agreeable thing in there, but the part where the poison randomly spreads to another visitor if they die to a non-Coven killer is as worthless as Framer or Forger. The NK cannot be affected since they have basic immunity, so you're basically wanting an NC, a TK or a TP to kill this person at night. A very specific set of conditions for a crappy, unneccessary reward.

 Medium 

You say that Medium is a boring role, using the value of "fun" which is very subjective and then you proceed to say it's weak and useless most of the time, based on absolutely 0 evidence and reasoning for that. Your solution? Fucking medium claims up, because that's what the game needs more of. Roles are not blamed for player faults, ever. Medium is fine the way it is, because it still retrieves information from the dead as it should be doing, counters janitors and forgers, and provides janitors with a proper claim they can make. Screwing claims for evils is not what the game requires at all, especially for crappy reasons like "This role is boring" and "I don't see this role being useful most of the time, therefore it is a fact and god's truth that it is not useful most of the time."

 Forger 

The only agreeable point of this thread. Not much to say here, the change is decent enough. Though I'd personally prefer Forger doesn't just stick in the same field as another mafia role.

 Crusader 

Issue articulation is horrendous on your side, a recurring pattern on this thread. Can be a negative utility, so? There's like 5 other roles that can do that too, but no one is screaming about them because people know how to actually use them. Crusader is no different, you can still use it well and produce positive results. Target prediction, prioritization and cautious action making are all skills that can be developed in this game and they all apply to Crusader. The possibility of negative utility is not enough reason to buff it, or else vig would've been buffed and everyone would've agreed on it back when random shooting as that role was so controversial. Player ignorance soliciting game changes is a disaster no one wants to see.

The inability to kill immune evils is just whining at this point. Crusader can kill about double the evils that BG can, while still successfully protecting their target from the attack of immune evils but you want the Crusader to kill more evils? Do you also happen to think that Retribrokenist needs a buff?

The priority system is trash, it's bending way too much in the favor of town. Making Crusader's odds of attaining certain results more predictable is an understandable change, but tilting it so much in the favor of town is beyond ridiculous. Crusader is already very threatening to evils because of how unpredictable he is in comparison to BG and Doctor, and the hands of a good player will amplify that threat. Negative utility is easily avoidable with Crusader by the mere act of communication.

The ability to kill immune evils is completely unnecessary, as previously explained. The inability of killing other Crusaders is so insignificant and so pointless as well. dang I knew you were gonna come and tear this apart.