Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20171002223259/@comment-31680260-20171004035253

DesertStorm11 wrote:

Jallybwan wrote:

DesertStorm11 wrote: The Coven have six roles. The Mafia have eleven. Nearly double the amount of Coven. Quality over quantity. Quality? You mean that sorry excuse for the Witch faction? At least the Mafia roles can DO something to the town.

(Turning people to stone, poisoning them, draining their lifeforce, burning them to dust with hexes... nah, I'm sure the town can recover!)

The Mafia have a much higher variety, thus allowing for much greater mystery. All non-Mafia Killing roles are non-unique, allowing there to be even MORE possibilities for the Random Mafia roles. And more possibility for a team of Framers.

You mean one of the better Mafia Deception roles? You seem to think Framers aren't great. They can greatly annoy and screw with many investigations results nearly invisibly, and they have a great claim. Two of them makes them an amazing power couple. One is worse. You contradicted yourself.

(Would you rather have two Framers or two Consiglieres? Framers DEPEND on TI's visiting exactly who they visit on the night they visit their target.)

With Coven, every role is unique. You have very low variety, meaning some players can often guess by mid-game what every Coven role is, and prepare accordingly. (I'll assume you're basing this off of the fact that Mafia have more roles, which I suppose is a fair point... but if there's a Blackmailer? Pretty obvious. If a confirmed Sheriff is repeatedly roleblocked? Obvious Consort.)

I've seen stupid Escorts in my days, and so have you. Even if they figure out a Consort, what's the Sheriff gonna do when he can't look for any Mafia? What about the Coven? Do YOU have any roleblockers? No! Because you think the most important thing in this game is killing.

(How many times must I say this? CL CAN ACT AS A ROLEBLOCKER. Control someone into themselves. Free roleblock. And with the Necronomicon, you don't need a roleblock.)

In Ranked, for example, you have a definite Godfather and Mafioso. However; there are seven (due to this not being the Coven expansion) other roles that can be divided into the extra two Random Mafia slots. This allows for an absolutely massive difference in possibilities. In the average game, players don't know what Mafia roles those are until mid- or sometimes even late-game.

A note for above: You say that it's obvious for a Blackmailer. I'm saying mid-or late-game. When you kill other players, it's CONFIRMED that your role is in the game. When the Investigator "randomly" gets roleblocked, no one will automatically know if it's an Escort or Consort. (I'm not talking about a "random" roleblock. A Consort become obvious when they repeatedly roleblock the TI over and over. Don't twist my words.)  (You're just trying to argue a point that you've clearly lost at this point.) (Statements like that only make me think you're running out of material yourself... you're trying to convince me that we've lost this point because you're the one close to losing it. Don't try and deny it, because anything you say regarding this can and will be used against you.) That's the magic of these Mafia rehash roles. They fit so perfectly into the Mafia, and can easily trick the Town and betray them at the last second, but it's too late for the Town to do anything about it. Your Coven? You get revealed INSTANTLY.

With the Coven in Coven Ranked, you have your definite Coven Leader and Medusa. There are only four other possible choices. Your argument of "every Coven role can kill" doesn't help here, as your roles can be revealed very, very early. (Actually, it does help. More kills leads to less townies, which means that the Town has less resources to find and lynch the Coven. And each kill brings them closer to majority, at which point identity doesn't matter.)  By night three, you could have every Coven role revealed, and even one of them lynched by then. (Same could be said for Mafia. It depends on the lineup of Mafia/Coven, and the general intelligence of the Town. As said earlier, you automatically reveal your role to the whole town when you kill someone. It's the same thing with a lot of other roles. When a Serial Killer kills someone, it's confirmed that there's a Serial Killer in the game. It's not like the Town will forget that kind of thing. If your Necromancer kills someone with a ghoul, the town won't forget that the Necro has the Necronomicon. While it might be easier to out the Coven, you've still got to figure out who's whom. I explained some of this above.) Knowledge of your roles is your absolute worst enemy among others, and you can't do much about it. The Town knows what to look out for, and you can't just claim anything and get away with it. (Potion Master would like to disagree.) With what? Your investigation result? Have fun claiming Doctor when you can only heal once every three nights, ESPECIALLY when the Town will know there's a PM in the game. Lookouts/Trackers can screw you over with your attacks, etc. etc. (What part of "NECRONOMICON" do you not understand? Even without the Necronomicon, you can have other members of the Coven claim that they're poisoned and healed. A Lookout might counter this, sure, but I'd wager most Lookouts wouldn't question a Doc that's been confirmed already. Even if they are that kind of Lookout, logic follows that they would have scoped out the first poisoned target to make sure the Doc really did visit them. Once they saw what they needed, they'd probably focus their attention on someone different instead of repeatedly trying to disprove the confirmed townie over and over.) By the time you say anything, you're as good as dead. (Same with all the Mafiosos claiming Vigilante, the GF's claiming BG, the Consorts claiming Escort, the BM'ers claiming Spy... the list goes on.) Half of those are wrong. Now that the Spy can visit, Blackmailers have a much easier time claiming it  (Not since the update removing the Spy's ability to see whispers. Regardless of what you think, the Town will ALWAYS be suspicious of Spy claims now that it can't prove itself as easily. Furthermore, to reliably claim Spy in the first place you would need to refrain from blackmailing ANYONE the whole game, since nobody will trust a Spy claim in a BM game.) , and Escort is such an easy claim for Consort. Your argument for Consort is honestly very stupid. (Insults aren't welcome here, makes me think you really are running out of valid points.) No Consort would just keep roleblocking the SAME person. If you do that, you clearly don't know how to Consort.  (You said it yourself, stupid Escorts and Consorts exist.)  Roleblock the Sheriff the night you kill them. (Coven Leader with Necro does that on her own, leaving her faction able to do other stuff.) Roleblock the Vigilante/Jailor ONE night. No one should be stupid enough to roleblock the same person that many times.  (See above "stupid people" arguments)  After you roleblock them, the GF/Mafioso can take care of them. It's very simple.  (The CL does the same thing in the same night, on her own.)