Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20180228113931/@comment-31680260-20180309061148

Addfire wrote:

You're arguing on semantics. Any non-mafia role is 'evil' to the mafia. You're entering a debate picking on things that don't matter. '''Don't matter, eh? Remember you said that; it'll be important for later.'''

You say a 'good chance' but there isn't actually any statistics that I've seen from you. So... get statistics, until then you have an invalid point. Statistics at the bottom of the post.

Maybe– Just maybe– that's the entire point of the mafia and town? So far, you haven't made the crusader any worse than a randoming vigilante– annoying and trash, sure, but it won't make you a quarter less likely to win. So the point of the Town is to kill people at random - literally at random - while the Mafia sit back and watch as you do their job for them?

That also isn't an argument. That's just pure sass. Reel it back in. '''I'm totally serious. Crusader is a negative utility, which makes it a nerf to the Town by definition.'''

Again, you say 'usually'. But let's point out that because it is random, there is absolutely no guarantee who the Crusader kills. '''That's part of what makes it such a bad role - it introduces pure chance into a game based on skill and deception! I'm aware the Ambusher does the same thing, though, which means '''

It could just as easily be an evil role, which, wait for it, helps the town. Use statistics. At the bottom of the post.

Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't make so bold a claim until you actually won. Haha, because I was typing in bold, huh?  Statistics on the likelihood that a Crusader will hit a townie 

In a typical game of Coven Ranked (using the most balanced list here), there are 9 Townies, 4 Coven, 1 NK and 1 NE.

Up to 8 of those townies can visit - anywhere between 0 and 8 - so let's say the average amount of visiting Townies is 4.

Only 3 Coven can ever visit, since the Medusa can only visit with the Necronomicon - which requires the CL to be dead. That's assuming they choose to visit - unlike Townies, the Coven have a reason to abstain from visiting, which is the Spy. However, if a Townie doesn't visit, that basically makes them a Citizen. Most players won't do that, since it's not fun, and ToS is played for fun. Ergo, up to 3 Coven can visit.

All NK's can visit, but WW only does so every second night, and Juggernaut can't visit N1. Once again, this is assuming the NK will actually kill - a Serial Killer will often lay low to trick the Town into thinking there's an Arsonist. '''On N1, only two killers can visit. 2/4 chance of ONE role being able to visit.'''

Jester and Executioner can't visit.

Therefore, the final ratio for N1 is 4 Town/3 Coven/1 NK. Best case scenario for the Crusader to hit an evil assuming average Townies. That's a 50/50 chance - would you say a coin flip is fair, or GOOD?

Furthermore, assuming the Crusader even hits an evil - coin flip chances at best - some evil roles have Basic Defense, which (as I have stated) it can't kill. NK is guaranteed to have Basic Defense (remember that Juggernaut can't kill N1, so it's out). CL won't have Necro. Since TP = Crusader, the only way for Doc to exist is through RT, which is a 1 in 17 chance for each slot (3/17 overall) which comes to a 17.6% chance of there being a Doctor to save someone from the Crusader.

I realize it is impossible to determine who would go for who without spending ages on the data - and quite frankly, I'm not willing to waste that much time, proving that a role sucks when we all know it does anyway.

'''I am also aware that this is for Night 1. My point is that, since it claims to be a PROTECTIVE role, it shouldn't have a 50/50 chance of KILLING its teammate on ANY night.'''

'''I am also also aware that this same formula works for Ambusher as well. But as you said yourself, Add - "Any non-mafia role is 'evil' to the mafia." And since the Ambusher can see who its teammates are visiting, it won't attack any of its faction. Therefore, if the Ambusher chooses to ambush, the result will only benefit the Mafia.'''