Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20180228113931/@comment-34951699-20180310042831

Jallybwan wrote: Spoon King Gus wrote: Crusader is better than Ambusher, and not just for being a better role itself, but also for how that role compares to its other roles in the faction Poor soul... not again :/Crusader isn't really that bad. Starting off your argument with a lie is.

It's pretty obvious who they're going to visit '''As opposed to the Mafia KNOWING who the Ambusher will visit, and vice-versa. Plus, it's only obvious if the Crusader reveals itself, which makes it a target - and since it can't protect itself, without the help of an ACTUAL protective role, it's gonna die. Lose-lose.'''

and usually town doesn't have any buisness visiting the person a Crusader intends to visit '''Wat? That's like saying "townies don't have any business visiting at all" - because unless the Crusader reveals itself, those townies aren't going to KNOW who the Crusader's "protecting".'''

(Excluding other TP's, unless they are aware of a Crusader's Pressence) '''Which, by the way, they'll only be aware of if the Crusader reveals itself or kills someone (likely a townie). And as I said before, the only way a Crus will survive being made a target is to have that other TP on them - which means the original target goes unprotected anyway.'''

At most, town should only lose members to a Crusader once ​​​​​​because they don't know one is in the game. '''False. Even if they know the Crusader's there, without the Crusader revealing themselves (which I have said MANY TIMES is a problem), they don't know who the Crusader would visit. And what do you do if there are two Crusaders? Calling specifically for a Crus there will result in two dead Crusaders and a defenseless Mayor.'''

Even if it usually doesn't kill the attacker, unlike BG, They also don't usually die when there is an attacker, unlike BG. (Excluding if the attacker is either a Werewolf, or Pestilence). '''So they can go around killing even MORE Townies! Great!'''

Ambusher, on the other hand, is worse than almost every other mafia role. '''Crusader is also worse than LITERALLY every other Town role. Including Sheriff.'''

They are very few times where an Ambusher is prefferable over something like a Janitor, Consigliere, Forger, or even a Framer. There are very few times when a Crusader is preferable over something like a MEDIUM.

The only time where Ambusher would really be prefferable is in a match with 4 Doctors / Bodyguards, or if you already have one of those roles. '''The only time where Crusader would be preferable is... actually, I can't think of one. Maybe if you want to make some poor Townie rage quit.'''

Even if that dream scenario occurs, there are STILL scenarios within that scenario where, say, the doctor heals someone you attacked, alerting them who you are, and getting you killed the next day. '''At least the Ambusher HAS a decent dream scenario. The Crusader's dream scenario is literally "hope you don't get screwed by RNG".'''

You have to get into such a specific scenario for Ambusher to compare to the other mafia roles, that having one instead of a different mafia role itself harms the mafia. '''Crusader doesn't measure up to the other Town roles no matter how you spin it. So... yeah. There's that.''' Your whole argument for the Ambusher was countered by basically the same point. And everything else was countered with points I've already used.

I feel like this argument is pretty much over. The idea of "Crusader's target being obvious" is because they know to only guard people who either a: Ask for a Crusader or b: are a revealed townie. Most townies have no buisness visiting revealed townies. Why would an Escort, Sherrif, Investigator, Spy, Vigilante, Or VH visit someone who just got a mafia member lynched? Other TP roles, Lookout, and Transporter have reasons to visit these kind of people, but only if they know there's Not a Crusader, which again, is why I argue that townies should only get attacked by a Crusader once. A "smart" Crusader will always make the "Braindead" play, because they know that doing anything else is risky.

Having 2 Crusaders is undeniably awful, but that's only in that scenario. However, is having an Ambushers much better? That's a Mafia slot wasted, which is vastly more impactful than 2 Town slots, who have the Option of just not performing their night action if they choose. But again, that's only in the scenario of 2 Crusaders.

Crusaders do also have the "Dream" Scenario, which essentially just means killing all the mafia and or coven that they can, and not really doing much else. In a way, they're like the Sheriff of TP. They can only do so much, but what they can do is crippling if it works out.

(Also, every role's dream scenario involves "Hope you don't get screwed by RNG". Any role can easilly get n1 controlled into a vet and immediately removed from the game, along with many other scenarios that they don't controll.)

Neither role is really good. Both roles have some potential punishment for using their roles, however Ambusher's punishment is vastly more impactful than the Crusaders. Losing one member of the town is much better for town than Killing a town member but losing a mafia member is for Mafia, simply due to mafia having much less members. Both roles do have the option of not using their night ability, but an inactive mafia member is far more impactful than an inactive Town member. Even in the worst case scenario of 2 crusaders, there is also the scenario within that scenario in which both Crusaders find eachother, and are very difficult to get rid of. This also works with Bodyguard and Doctor. Ambusher doesn't have that synergy with any member of the mafia, they're just there, briefly, and gone. Janitors and Forgers can't synergize with an Ambusher, because they don't know who is getting killed, but Crusader's don't need to know whos getting killed to have synergy. This factor greatly inceases the potential of Crusader over Ambusher, which is enhanced further by the fact that Ambusher is a Mafia role, while Crusader is a town role.

One last thing, townies are not always going to visit either role's target, so Crusader's DON'T always kill townies, just sometimes.