Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20181230235210/@comment-36558623-20190104152820

Vertroyer wrote: Jailor is very powerful, but I would attribute his being overpowered to the lack of counters rather than the role itself. Jailor meta's dangerous and all, but it's not necessarily unbeatable. I suppose yes, it is overpowered.

Fair, but counters shouldn 't need to exsist for balance.

Sheriff is fine. Under a Ranked game, his detection of the mafia is pretty consistent. It's the NK that's the only "swingy" part, and even that will be fixed when the eventual Framer rework comes. I wouldn't say he's significantly swingy.

'''But if Night One a Sheriff finds someone suspicious, the game becomes much more difficult for the evils. As opposed to a Sheriff who finds the Mafia on N4 or N5.'''

Investigator does limit evil claims quite a lot, but I think the counters are satisfactory. The counters would be a lot better when Framer gets reworked and Disguiser's execution is actually as good as the core concept. Otherwise, I would not say he's overpowered by simply existing. The way TIs have been acting in Ranked along jailor meta allows for countering them.

But the Investigator may easily disprove evils attempted claims and don't even need to be in the game to make an evil much more suspicious because of their claim.

Lookout is fine. I don't see why the need to nerf. If you're talking about his power in jailor meta, he's just a weaker protective taking up a TI slot. Their tendency to expose themselves as TIs early game also makes them easy targets, seeing how protectives are attracted to the jailor.

'''Lookout may easily confirm or disproved multiple roles in one night. When the Role List is filled, Town wins, so even confirming four roles is busted. '''

I can agree with giving mafia answers to spy, something more consistent than depending on mafia composition or early targeting.

Fun is subjective, but Medium is definitely balanced.

Ret being removed is a pretty big dream. Either full removal or an overhaul.

I'm not sure about how reliable that Escort statement is. If it's purely the stalemates that are Escort's issue, there's nothing really wrong with that, it'll just be a draw then and everyone moves on.

Fair, I was trying to start a fight with every role.

Mayor simply needs to be in an alignment of its own with Jailor and Ret, like the very common Town Power suggestion. The swing that the TS alignment brings is the whole problem here, not just Mayor. Otherwise, I think the role is fine.

'''I disagree, confirming yourself is a huge hassle for every role, being 'confirmed' is nearly impossible for half the town roles. But there's no effort here or inconvenience, it's literally a click of the button.'''

Transporter just needs to not self confirm any more, and the problem is solved.

Fair.

Vig is fine, agreed.

Vet is also fine, agreed.

VH accompanies an NC role, meaning it only shows in casual game modes. For that, some people like it and others don't, not a role I care much about.

I agree

Once again, fun is subjective. Otherwise, doctor is fine.

BG is quite powerful, but counterable enough. I think it's fine.

The GF isn't really the issue with mafia. I think he works good enough as an anchor against Sheriff and providing an escape to the Mafioso from jailors and escorts.

Fair, I guess

Mafioso could have more purpose, but I don't see the problem with him at the moment. He works fine in SC2: Mafia, don't see why he doesn't work here.

'''Mafioso is a boring (subjective) and underpowered role. Other RM's have more power opposed to Mafioso, as most nights the Mafioso is useless. It needs more to do.'''

Janitor is the only good Mafia Deception in this game, agreed.

What the fuck does being a copy of Escort have to do with Consort being praised? Regardless, Consort is fine as a role, it doesn't really need any attention to it at the moment.

'''I agree with the second point. But the first point should be accounted for. Being unoriginal kinda sucks.'''

Blackmailer is mostly fine, the spam vote method of confirming you're BMed is an annoyance at least. If the vote was hidden but still counts, we'd really be talking blackmail then.

Seems good.

Forger needs to be reworked entirely, buff is an understatement.

Fair.

The Framer statement is beyond wrong. It is down there with Forger in terms of being useless even at its own supposed job. It needs a full-on rework.

'''Fair-ish, Framer is very underpowered, but with Luck and Strategy, it may be passable. A full rework isn't required, a buff is.'''

Disguiser needs more freedom with its mechanics instead of said mechanics being so anal about Disguiser pulling off any plays. His concept is fine, there's a skill ceiling to play him, there's a use to him but the numerous counters for him are way too much.

I guess so, but I still believe it needs a colossal buff.

Consig is fine, honestly.

This was mostly a jab at the Investigator, I agree with your statement here.

Third time saying this, fun is subjective. Executioner is great, serves his purpose by merely being in the game.

'''Right, right, sorry. Executioner just wins too easily by saying something stupid like "John Hathorne the Sheriff N1: Cotton Mather. Suspicious"'''

Jester is awesome too, agreed.

Witch is not that bad at the moment, seeing how easy it is for a town to steamroll the evils and how it kills a possible counter for the evils. Should the evils be buffed to be at Town's level, then perhaps Witch might need a nerf in response.

But Witch is just so much better than the other NE's, and aside from Vigilante, it doesn't affect the game even when it's not in the game, which Jester and Executioner do.

Survivor is too swingy to be in Ranked, should definitely not be in there when they can switch their alignment at any given notice or even assist in the snowballing of a faction when they're already winning. Its place in casual is alright.

'''Executioner does the same thing. It's better to have bad numbers.'''

Amnesiac doesn't see the light of Ranked, so the "too much power" doesn't seem that bad of an issue to me.

'''I guess, but if it was in Ranked, it would be too swingy. Because this is an "If" it doesn't really matter, I suppose.'''