Board Thread:Role Ideas (Neutral)/@comment-31167710-20170512213704/@comment-27398195-20170513054535

Bokkunthechoa wrote: @HAWAIIANpikachu

Dang, I've disappointed Hawaiian.

'''​Kinda hard not to. I've only accepted 4 roles.'''

Alright, I don't belive that a Neutral role that can confirm another player is by nature a terrible idea.

It's a bad concept, doesn't mean it can't be accepted if not worked well enough with.

Therfore, I would like to take the biggest complaints to heart to see where things could be improved. I probably won't come out of it unrejected, but I think it would be a fun experiment.

​ok

The biggest problem is obviously the fact that NKs get nerfed heavily.

​Exactly.

The simple solution would be to have the Revealer not learn the exact role of the person he tries to reveal. That would mean, if he failed to reveal, his target could be a Jester, Mafioso, Serial Killer, Vampire, Any Survivor, or basically anything.

'''​Which would make it better for the NKs... but bad for if you wanted to side with evils.'''

​But meh.

The ambiguity would make it difficult to fully out your target. The downside would be that it makes it harder for Revealer to side with any evils, as he doesn't know for certain what they are.

An alternate method would be a change to the goal. Ramerion did bring it up as his greatest complaint. Perhaps picking a non-town may force you to side with whoever you discover?

​That's okay.

Eh, that would solve the problem of nerfing NKs, but it would also make this role suck. "Hey, I'm the Revealer" "Alright, Reveal something" "I did" "Oh, so he's with the mafia/SK now.  LYNCH!"

​Then don't claim revealer...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">An indirect fix would be to give Revealer a second ability. If he selected two players, the first person would be revealed as the second's role. That would at least give them ground to stand on, but it wouldn't fully fix the problem.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">​Seems too OP >_>

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So, is there a way to keep the reveal function, without majorly nerfing all Neutral Killings...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">HASDFAJKSDFKAFKLAlright here are two more ideas...

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The first idea would be a change to the message you receive when Revealing. When a reveal doesn't go through, you would receive one of the following responses:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Mafia/NK "You've casted your spell of Revelations, but it was rejected! Your target holds strong malice."

<p style="font-weight:normal;">NB "You've casted your spell of Revelations, but it was rejected! Your target is mentally unsound."

<p style="font-weight:normal;">NE "You've casted your spell of Revelations, but it was rejected! Your target has either lost their mind, or carry their own magic."

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Vampire "You've casted your spell of Revelations, but it was rejected! Oh snap!  It's Dracula!"

<p style="font-weight:normal;">​Now it's more becoming like an invest

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The second idea is quite a bit simpler. Make it so that Revealer can no longer keep a will, until after they have used their power. If you add this with the current NK handling method, then that may solve the problem. The only way Revealer can out the NK is if they announce who they're checking the day before.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">​And then they asked to be protected, as stated before.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">This method isn't perfect obviously, as you can always be targeted outside of reveals.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Actually, I'm editing in the second idea as a stand-in for now.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Nerfing NKs was the biggest issue, but not the only one. The second complaint was that it buffed town.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Here are about the outcomes that can be expected, depending on who gets revealed:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Jailor: He's going to be protected until TP dies. A smart Lookout will watch him to learn who TP is, and possibly see a kill attempts. The benefit is that Town can easily keep their strongest role alive, but the downside is that it draws in too much attention. Good for Town early on, bad for town after TP is killed.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">All Town Investigatives: Well, if they're confirmed, then there's no reason not to share all of their information. TP will probably keep them safe, at least until Jailor reveals. Good for Town later on, bad in the early game.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Vigilante: Well, this can only be bad for the Mafia. Takes away the claim Mafioso is most likely to use. Always good for Town.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Veteran: Well, why would anybody visit him anymore? Veteran becomes useless for almost the entire game. Bad for town.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Any Town Protective: Well, you've basically written their names in a Death Note. Worst possible outcome for town.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Escort: Good for Neutral Killings, not great for Town or Mafia.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Mayor: Well, you just pressed the button for them. Pretty neutral, but favoring the evils, as it takes away Mayor's ability to reveal when he wants to.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Medium: This is often worst thing you can reveal for the evils, as it's a very common scum claim. Ranges from being neutral to amazing for town overall.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Retributionist: This role is already pretty confirmable, so this is just a waste. Bad for town in done before a revival, neutral if done afterwards.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Transporter: This isn't really great for anyone, but I guess it would favor the evils. It at least tells them who they're playing mind games against.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Vampire Hunter: On the one hand, you just announced that there are Vampires in this game. On the other hand, you may have just saved them from visiting certain death. Bad for Town, bad for Mafia, bad for NKs, Amazing for Vampires.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">So, if you were keeping track: 2 outcomes favor town always. 5 favor town or evils depending on timing, 3 are rather neutral, and the rest favor evils. At least, if you accept the reasoning I have given for each role.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">'''​I said that it buffed town because it gave out pretty much instantly a good or evil role. Never said anything about the long run tho.'''

<p style="font-weight:normal;">This comment is getting pretty long, so I'll end it here. I'll add the quick-fix for the NK nerf, and await responses on other problems.

'''​While none of these will truely fix it, it does has some ideas to mess with the Hardcounters NK problem. So... yay for fixing?'''