Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20181230235210/@comment-26234016-20190107201713

Betimawesome wrote: My debate: Ambusher is better than majority of the mafia deception. It can be good in a good bit of situations and if it doesn't just visit people who ask to be visited like a retard Your argument: "Ambusher is good when it's good"

Damn, guess I'll lose the debate when held to this stellar standard of arguing. Listen here, sonny jim. If your argument is that Ambusher is good when it's in very specific situations and when used by skilled players, you have lost this argument. A good role should be intuitive– take the, for instance. A role that's simple, easy to understand, and useful enough that you would have to be a decomposing sea cucumber not to use the Investigator well. The is another fantastic example of an intuitive role, a role that requires so little difficulty to understand that it was at one point used as an example role in the tutorial.

Now we turn our attention to your sorry excuse for an argument. The is better than the majority of – so you're forcing me to decide for you which roles you're even talking about– when it is 'good in a good bit of situations' and if 'it doesn't just [act] like a[n idiot].' So you've established that a) the role is useless in enough situations that it isn't a ubiquitously useful role and b) that it takes a skilled player who knows a fair amount of ToS gameplay skills to play successfully.

A majority of Mafia Deception, you say. The members of Mafia Deception are the, , , , and. There are five members of Mafia Deception, so a majority is three– you are arguing that it is better than three members of Mafia Deception. Now, don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth, but I'm assuming you're talking about the, , and , because the and  are just untouchable.

'Good in a good bit of situations'– Granted, the Disguiser is about as helpful as a wet rag. Sure, there are times when the disguiser can be helpful, but it's not exactly breaking news. And sure, the Framer's buff helped, but it didn't exactly move mountains. Yeah, Ambusher probably beats out those two roles. But the Forger. The Forger is just invaluable. Trying to get an NK or NE out of the way? Forger. Hiding a TI's information, or a Townie's scumreading in general? Forger. The only case where a Forger isn't useful is when there are literally no townies left.

And intuition? Every single MD smashes the Ambusher in terms of intuition, except maybe the Disguiser. But the Forger is unambiguously intuitive, you just click on the button and get a will to forge. Meaning that 3/2 Mafia Deception roles are better than the Ambusher. Meaning that a majority of Mafia Deception roles are better than the Ambusher. Meaning that your brief little jaunt in starting an argument was pointless and ill-fated, because you just got proved w r o n g.