Board Thread:Role Ideas (Other)/@comment-38801580-20190710151045/@comment-38801580-20190729035845

TheLastHappyPotato wrote: Ok time to review this '''Well, I can't do much about the fact that they change other role's win condition. This is literally the special feature of the Cult, their power to turn town abilities on themselves.'''
 * The Cult leader breaks a few fundimentals, in that they change other role's win conditions and worse KILL them for no cause that the converted would have the power to prevent. If the latter were removed it would probably be decent tbh The Cult Leader does not kill their converted members.  The main issue with converted members is what happens when they're the only Cult members left plus a bunch of townies?  We're dealing with a faction that has 0 KPN (you've got a faction of a converted Medium, Doctor, and Lookout), and it just drags out the endgame making everything boring.  This feature is implemented to remove that.  If converted townies are all that your Cult has, they all get dealt an Unstoppable attack, because the game would be boring otherwise.

- Also keep in mind that the Mayor is going have a very strong incentive to reveal and be converted, and the TP will be powerless to prevent it '''Are you sure about that? We're still deciding Cult Leader interactions with TP, aka which roles can stop it, which roles will kill the Cult Leader, etc.'''

- A third issue is that the converted are going to be suspected of throwing, and the actual throwers are going to be able to pass themselves off as converted. This is just a meta thing, but it is an issue Converted townies get the fact that they were converted outed whenever they die.


 * Silencer looks pretty darn good, but scrolling through deaths is going to give the player very little time to think about their plans and who to kill. Other than that I rather like this role. There aren't that many deaths right?  Probably 20 or less?  And most people plan things out, think of the Hypnotist has to choose a bunch of messages.


 * Kidnapper is really bland, and roleblocking someone on the night of their death is already making this more powerful than the Mafioso/Consort. Somehow I think Mafioso/Consort has a better chance of winning though, because the main point of giving evil roles roleblock capabilities in the first place was letting them infiltrate. This isn't infiltration, this is pointing a gun at the town and hoping your gun is strong enough to take them out before they take you out, and that just isn't what TOS is about. It's a social game about who you can trust. So no, I am not a fan of kidnapper. I agree, I was kind of on the fence about this role too.  I'm trying to come up with something to replace it, an Extortionist which gives your target a variety of options to choose from.  This should probably be scrapped.

- Also the circumstances of use you listed are too narrow to be useful and not a specialization needed for evil roles


 * Demonologist is actually a pretty neat concept. I have some notes

- The Demonologist prevents visitors from visiting, yet the Veteran only attacks when the target visits THEM. Logically you shouldn't be killed/attacked by them considering the mechanics of visiting. '''Clarification issue:  The Demonologist prevents all other visits besides itself from succeeding. It's basically a jail cell with lower priority than the Jailer that lets the victim out. '''

'''If a Werewolf rampages your target, they won't kill your target, but they will attack everyone who tried to visit them. A Bodyguard will kill the Werewolf if they also visit that target. The Werewolf will murder you, the Demonologist. If your target is a Veteran on Alert, the Veteran will shoot you and anyone else who visits your target.'''

- This actually makes for one of the best support ideas I've ever seen, at least until the Necronomicon shows up. Do you reaaaaally need that? (Rework idea for the Necro. It only shows up if all but one member of the Cult is dead. That way Cult members can be support characters without sucking alone)''' Nice idea, but once again, you deal with the 0 KPN issue. "Hey, the Cult Killing is dead, what do we do now?" "Muck around until only one of us is left alive and we can actually kill someone."'''

- One more thing. If you want this to stop Jailors, make it a day ability. If not, consider how this impacts Jailed targets  Jailing takes priority.


 * Priest is another interesting concept that I really like. Your note about it having many options is absolutely correct, and I think it perfectly captures the trust/distrust element of the game best displayed by Executioner and Jesters. Thank you.


 * Librarian has a few fundemental flaws that make me dislike it, mainly being that it relys on people keeping their wills up to date and intact (Which good players SHOULD do but it doesn't always happen) and it feels a little weak until it gets the killing ability. It's fine, just not a role I'd enjoy playing. It just feels too circumstancial. It may seem circumstantial, but it's much better if you have an intelligent Librarian who can deduce the minds of the visit logs.  "This guy seems to keep visiting like, one confirmed townie the whole time!  Probably a TP, we should convert him and kill whoever he was protecting."  "This guy seems to always target quiet or suspicious people.  Probably an Escort trying to pin down the Cult Killing role."

- Also its a better version of the forger. Can this be the new forger? This should replace Forger '''Yes, I got this idea from a Forger rework. But the Librarian cannot change people's wills. I will agree that a Forger rework is definitely needed.'''

- Tracker is indeed a good claim, and not one most evil roles can claim, so kudos for thinking of that

And now for the non-Cult members, added in the DLC idea


 * Um ok... not gonna lie, the "other 3 horsemen" concept is starting to really annoy me. I've seen it come up, and aside from generally being broken, it makes Pestilence feel less special....... With that said, I'll try to keep an open mind
 * I get it, but I really only did this because of symmetry.  "Okay, we've got Pestilence.  Where's War, Death, and Famine?  What's so special about Pestilence?"

- Reaper: Your reward for trying to kill townies is making them much stronger. Yaaaaaay -_-

- Death: The fact that you noted that "there isn't much strategy to it" says it all. Towns have the weakest night abilities in the game and their lynching ability is their best asset. Why would you give them so much MORE of that?!? They have the biggest winrate in the entire game for crying out loud. Plus not giving people their night abilites makes the game more boring. '''You have a point here. I'll try to edit the after-transformation properties, but I'm keeping how the Reaper transforms.'''

- Warrior: At least this guy can just ask his mafia buddies to help him transform?

- War: Yay 2 attacks. With at least 2 players dead already. Thaaaaats going to make the other mafia guys inferior and pointless. Also is it just me or does this guy's transformation process feel like a less interesting Priest? I need to change the transformation process here, will do.

- Deprieved: Ewww, Starving is contagious, get those poor people AWAY from me. (Wait... that makes a little TOO much sense)

- Famine: Oh... this is actually a really good idea, I honestly wasn't expecting that O_O. Add this to the list of good ideas to be salvaged please. Thanks.

New town roles to balance the evil? These will be considered as if Cult roles exist as they would in this concept


 * Nurse... is really hecking weird. And overpowered, nothing about this makes it less powerful than doctor, and that's an issue This is not so hard to fix.  Doctor grants Powerful defense though, and can cure Poison.  But a Nurse nerf may be in order.


 * Scientist: This is complicated and a little convoluted, but I guess it's fine. I feel like there isn't much strategy involved here though, as one would just go through ALL the evil roles (and their claim) to see if they post a threat.

- Additonally, they'll be an easy claim for evil roles in the same manner as Psychic, except actually even easier, as they just have to say that they aren't the roles they're NOT.

'''Okay, but it depends on your Scientist strategy. Definitely helps narrow down claimspace though.'''

- Otherwise this is at least better than psychic, as it isn't RNG based. I'll give it that.


 * Judge: So... to figure out if the people you're playing are evil... make them evil. Seems logical -_-  This is a Town Killing.  Executioners are in general, an easy threat to deal with.  You just have to ignore whatever they say, and you don't even need to kill them to win.  You just got rid of a killer's night ability.  And might I add this bypasses all defense except Invincible?​​​​​​​

- Another role that breaks the rule of no changing win conditions? And it's a TOWN role? (Tf happens if they turn a Cult Leader to an Exe on the same night they get converted by them?!?) '''Then, the Cult Leader is now an Executioner. If there are other Cult members left, you're on their side now, with your second transformation ability. If there are no more Cult Members left, then you are dealt an Unstoppable attack the next night.'''

- Also tons of people will easily claim judge and that their opponents are Executioners

'''It's a Unique role, might I add. And I don't see how this is a bad thing. Now the entire town has to work extra hard to see who's the Judge and who's the Executioner. And who's the evil role faking Judge.'''

- Billy was killed by the Veteran last night. His role was judge. Well, that was a dumb decision of the Judge.