Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20180228113931/@comment-31680260-20180310045652

Spoon King Gus wrote: The idea of "Crusader's target being obvious" is because they know to only guard people who either a: Ask for a Crusader or b: are a revealed townie. Most townies have no buisness visiting revealed townies. Except, like you said yourself, other Crusaders (or other TP's in general). Why would an Escort, Sherrif, sheriff* Investigator, Spy, Vigilante, Or VH visit someone who just got a mafia member lynched? Bussing strategies exist - and as you have said, TP's. Other TP roles, Lookout, and Transporter have reasons to visit these kind of people, but only if they know there's Not a Crusader, which again, is why I argue that townies should only get attacked by a Crusader once. '''Do you see what I mean, though? The very NOTION that a Crusader MIGHT exist is enough (by your own reckoning) to put a TP off protecting someone. That leaves the protected townie with the insecurity of evils as their only defense.''' A "smart" Crusader will always make the "Braindead" play, because they know that doing anything else is risky. '''So this role essentially punishes risk-taking no matter what. That's not fun. And as I've said many times over, ToS is a game. Games are played for fun. If Crusader bad enough to make the Town groan when it's revealed. It does happen, I've seen Crusaders lynched on revealing because the Mayor was afraid it would wipe out the Town. I would have just told them not to protect anyone, but the point still stands - people HATE this role. Ergo, in a game that's played for fun, it should not exist. '''

Having 2 Crusaders is undeniably awful, but that's only in that scenario. However, is having an Ambushers much better? For its faction, yes! That's a Mafia slot wasted, which is vastly more impactful than 2 Town slots '''Where the hell do you get that from? 2 Townies = a quarter of the Town (not counting the guaranteed Jailor), same as the Ambusher. Furthermore, the Crusader wastes a TOWN PROTECTIVE slot. TP is arguably the most important Town role - I know for a fact that they're generally the highest-priority targets for evils.''' who have the Option of just not performing their night action if they choose. But again, that's only in the scenario of 2 Crusaders. '''Ambusher also has the option not to act. And another Mafia member can bus the Ambusher without any serious loss to the Mafia - 25% is a small price to pay for CONFIRMING your Godfather.'''

Crusaders do also have the "Dream" Scenario, which essentially just means killing all the mafia and or coven that they can, and not really doing much else. In a way, they're like the Sheriff of TP. They can only do so much, but what they can do is crippling if it works out. '''Good point. But that also applies to Ambusher, surprise surprise - dream scenario for Amby is never getting caught. But, as both of these roles prove, "dream" scenarios almost never happen. They were designed with these dream scenarios in mind, which is why they're so bad - BMG thought the dream scenario was the average scenario.'''

(Also, every role's dream scenario involves "Hope you don't get screwed by RNG". Any role can easilly get n1 controlled into a vet and immediately removed from the game, along with many other scenarios that they don't controll.) (RNG shouldn't have to be considered in a dream scenario - ToS is skill-based.)

Neither role is really good. '''That's an understatement. Both of them suck donkey nuts.''' Both roles have some potential punishment for using their roles, however Ambusher's punishment is vastly more impactful than the Crusaders. Losing one member of the town is much better for town than Killing a town member but losing a mafia member is for Mafia, simply due to mafia having much less members. '''You're using the same point that I've countered many times in this debate. Crus has the potential - if not the LIKELIHOOD - to kill more than just one Townie.''' Both roles do have the option of not using their night ability, but an inactive mafia member is far more impactful than an inactive Town member. You can then bus the Ambusher to confirm a Mafia member, which will screw the Town over a lot more in the long run. Even in the worst case scenario of 2 crusaders, there is also the scenario within that scenario in which both Crusaders find eachother, and are very difficult to get rid of. '''Same thing can be done with two Doctors, or a Doctor and a Bodyguard. Crusader is totally pointless when compared to the other TP's.''' This also works with Bodyguard and Doctor. So why the hell does Crusader exist, when the other TP's do its job - only better? Ambusher doesn't have that synergy with any member of the mafia, they're just there, briefly, and gone. They have the synergy of "I won't murder my teammates", which is more than I can say for Crus. Janitors and Forgers can't synergize with an Ambusher, because they don't know who is getting killed, but Crusader's don't need to know whos getting killed to have synergy. '''I'm sorry what? They synergize with other townies by killing them at random? I don't understand this point here.''' This factor greatly inceases the potential of Crusader over Ambusher, which is enhanced further by the fact that Ambusher is a Mafia role, while Crusader is a town role. '''Except that we can look at what the roles are MEANT to do, which will influence their "potential". The lay-down is that, while Ambusher sucks, at least it actually does its job - killing. Crusader, while it does protect its target, it does so at the high-risk of killing another townie - making the protection totally pointless.'''

One last thing, townies are not always going to visit either role's target, so Crusaders DON'T always kill townies, just sometimes. '''Statistically, they're more likely to hit a townie than anything else at BEST. Once again, this is more than I can say for Crusader.'''