Board Thread:Role Ideas (Rework)/@comment-33254000-20181211091613/@comment-28112409-20181211164403

Your suggestion makes not the slightest bit of sense, which is predictable seeing how your only experience with Coven is the free weekend.

First off, you've completely misinterpreted the purpose of both Coven and Mafia. Both factions are a main enemy to the Town, they are the 2nd party faction designed as the main antagonist to the Town. You can't have two main factions in a game, obviously you only have one of them to oppose the Town. In the normal game, the main enemy is the mafia and the Coven takes the role in the DLC with the exception of the Mafia Returns game mode.

With that in mind, why in the world are you pitting up the 2 factions against each other? Why, can you tell me why? Have the number of whys emphasized how stupid this comparison is yet? You have ripped off both factions completely out of their purpose and placed them as independent factions that are designed to be their own thing, versing other factions like there's no tomorrow. Mafia and Coven were each designed with the idea in mind that they need to be the main challenge for Town and that they need to have serious dangers for Town. Why you are throwing Mafia and Coven against each other then calling it unbalanced, I have no idea. Simply put, Mafia was never meant to have equal firepower or footing when going against Coven, because that never happens with 2 exceptions.

All Any and Custom. Both games are chaotic, can be very unbalanced and are generally meant to be for goofing around or having fun, not for serious gameplay like Ranked or Ranked Practice. These are the only 2 gamemodes where Coven vs. Mafia is possible. I'm not counting Lovers mode because it only has Medusa and Godfather in there. When the only grounds for witnessing the lack of balance are 2 gamemodes that don't exactly care about balance, it makes your argument quite questionable. Do you see any Mafia vs. Coven in Classic? Ranked? Ranked Practice? Mafia Returns? Why is there only one faction out of either Mafia or Coven in those gamemodes? You know exactly why. The logic here is fundamentally flawed, and I should end my post here.

But screw ending my post here, because you also listed changes, so let's go through them one by one.

The Godfather change is pointless because there's already 2 methods to stop death note inconsistency between the Mafioso and the Godfather. Either the Godfather copies the Mafioso's will or the Mafioso doesn't make a death note to begin with unless absolutely necessary. Skilled mafia make their death notes concise, like mentioning when someone is immune with just 3 words, so there isn't much difficulty with copying the Mafioso's death note as GF. The problem mentioned is resolved when players get more skillful, you shouldn't dumb down the game because of the bad players. Would you like to remove Vig's ability to random shoot too?

You said Mafia should be more deceptive, then tell me wtf is BMer's change meant to do for that. What dragged Jester in here? What does Jester have to do with Mafia's deception? "Non-skilled defenses"? Again, you should not be dumbing down the game because of bad players. That's stupid. This change has absolutely nothing to do with your main point, it's just random trash thrown in there because of an irrelevant rant or bad experience. Let's also force people to say "cc" whenever someone claiming something in their role alignment goes up the trial, yeah? Makes human sense, not.

The Consig change makes no sense. Why is Arso, of all people, dragged into this? Hex Master vs. Consig is one of the most unlikely encounters to ever happen and it shouldn't be a thing considered for balancing either, so I don't care about that change much because of how unnecessary it is but why Arso? This is not a Consig buff, this is an Arso nerf. May I remind you that Arso is an NK, with relatively low winrates, who has to face off against 13 other players alone most of the time and relies on his douses to confuse both Invest and Consig to help cause suspicion and chaos? Why are you even buffing Consig if Mafia were meant to be deceptive? Consig is one of, if not the strongest role in all of the Mafia already and you want to buff it even further against an enemy with already low winrates and limited capabilities?

Now, buffing Framer is the only thing I'm gonna agree with you about on this post. However, buffing Framer is a discussion that has been run through so many times '''with the fact that Mafia are supposed to be a main enemy for Town in mind. '''I think the best person to refer to for this is none other than this guy. DragonClaw has made a thread on the forums or probably talked about his great idea for buffing Framer in this wiki, and he's run it through the opinions and views of many ToS players including veterans and pros. I'd suggest starting a discussion with him about this and telling him to show his rework somewhere because I couldn't find it (goddammit Dragon).

The Forger change is broken, because a Forger can just click everyone individually, check their wills, and simply take up all the information from the will or even confirm their roles. The role will become broken entirely, and he doesn't have to spend a single forge to do what he does. Even if he was somehow limited to seeing only 3 wills, it's still broken. Do you know how many roles this guy can confirm if he was able to do that? And how much information he can gain just from doing that? You would create a mini-consig mini-janitor hybrid, and it would be disastrous for game balance.

It is clear you haven't played Ambusher enough or at all, because he already doesn't attack his mafia members when they visit the same target. Also, you want to make Ambusher an omniscient killer now? They won't attack if there's more than one so they can just remain safe and a whole chunk of their risk is thrown outside the window? Then you want to prevent mediums and rets from countering him completely as well, so that even more of that risk is thrown out? I don't know how powerful or how underpowered Ambusher is and whether that correlates with player skill or not, but he's an independent 2nd killer for Mafia and the risks are deserved for the mafia having such power as far as I can see. This also has nothing to do with your main point, which was deception. Ambusher is a killer, and the value out of him is being able to raise the average KPN of mafia when played correctly. What does Ambusher have to do with deception?

Now we get into the Coven stuff.

Why is the Necronomicon nerf needed? Right, let's run the numbers. Sheriff can detect up to 4 Coven roles until N3 starts, where he can now find up to 3 Coven roles. In Ranked, he can find up to 3 Mafia roles and is considered a very powerful Town role in that game mode. With that in mind, and seeing how Sheriff has better odds of finding a Coven member, why nerf the Necronomicon? Yes, you can argue that Hex Master exists, but Spy exists as well, effectively nullifying any successful frames the HM can pull off and greatly limiting the Coven's plays while he's at it. Coven suffers from the major investigative threats Mafia have to face as well, so I see no need to nerf the Necronomicon.

Why? You complained about Coven doing everything better than Mafia, so your solution is buffing Coven members? Your changes are wildly inconsistent with your main contention, you need to clarify what the frik you're trying to do here because there's a good lot of holes in your points. Why CL needs an astral visit is beyond me, I don't understand how you got to this conclusion or what got you into it. CL is friggin powerful already man. Consig ability, roleblocking, roleblock immunity, ability redirection, Medusa synergy, all of that furthered by Necronomicon which she always gets first and that gives her a Basic Attack, Basic Defense and Detection immunity. You want to add Astral visits with all of that?

What's the point of even allowing Doctor to heal the poison if no one would even know they were poisoned? This is essentially a straight up buff, which is once again inconsistent with your main point. Can we take a moment to appreciate how you thought that to balance Coven, you started buffing them in the fields where they were already the strongest with: killing? Somehow, you believe that buffing the strongest field a faction can do is balanced. Coven melts Town numbers with their current available roster, faster than any other faction opposing Town is capable of as far as I'm aware of. Making them melt those numbers faster and with more power is not a sound decision.

The PM nerf part is not even a nerf, it does almost nothing and buffs its killing even more with the 2 day cooldown. The thing is an overall buff which makes the role more kill-capable and more powerful which is once again, contradicting your contention. Why is the nerf worthless? Think about it. The Coven are all already known and there's no Mafia in the usual games, which crosses both of those completely from all invest results. NKs are easily deduced or eliminated by observing what kills the Town is receiving, so cross that out. What you have is essentially PM still being able to almost always confirm most of the Town roles. Results with multiple townies? Coven wouldn't care because both roles shown are equally threatening that it doesn't even matter which one it is. BG or Crusader? Both are protectives, kill the target regardless of who it is. Jailor or Spy? Both are major enemies that need to be eliminated ASAP. Investigator or Mayor? Both are dangerous roles that can threaten the Coven with their capabilities and should be wiped at once. See how it doesn't matter which role it is? You've buffed the killing capacity of a Coven member in a faction that already specializes in killing. This change is trash.

Coven's deception capabilities have barely changed but instead you buffed them to be broken as all hell, and most of Mafia's changes have nothing to do with deception at all. Most of these changes are garbage, the fundamental logic behind them is garbage and the reasoning for all this is garbage. The points given are weak, the changes are not well thought out and the end result is that they came out nonsensical and completely missing the point or contradicting your contention outright. Overall, a terrible suggestion.