Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20181230235210/@comment-28112409-20190111121458

Pokechurin wrote:

I disagree with part of the forger point- outclassed does not mean outright bad. Addressing the Consig/Janitor point, Consig provides less utility than Janitor when it comes to its role. Yes, they are both countered by Spy, but one has an effect on the game that allows you to disrupt the town better than Consig can. No matter if you die, you're at least putting some rolespace in for your mafia members, while Consig cannot do that, it only finds info for your mafia, valuable, sure, but doesn't have the same value of clearing up rolespace. Forger doesn't do that and that's partially why it's bad. I still think Framer is worse though. Again, outclassed doesn't equal bad. If you have 1 Forger and 1 other RM vs 1 Framer and 1 other RM, I believe Forger would be the better pick. It still disrupts even if the Forge doesn't work, yes it's a worse Janitor, I don't care, it's still more valuable than a Framer.

Consort does not create rolespace, the most important thing you can have in a game for your mafia, as your goal is to set up a fake claim that is believable for the town so that you achieve majority. Neither does Blackmailer. Janitor does, and prevents town from receiving info.

As for Ambusher I'll admit I have very little experience, but an extra kill is pretty decent if you can get it. However, it doesn't really provide any disruption or support for the mafia, which is a shame. I don't really like it that much. I don't think you read the consig/janitor point at all. By "some rolespace" you mean exactly one at the very least, and then people throw their claims and Janitor has already been countered. There's also 2 roles capable of destroying Janitor's progress completely should they be present in the game. You're also talking like I said to bring down Janitor down next to Consigliere, which I didn't. You used the meta logic to justify consig being at 4, then omitted that part completely when justifying Janitor being at 2, which is hypocritical as shit and that's why I pointed it out.

I'll give you the Forger being better than Framer.

Consort doesn't give claimspace, but stopping a townie from doing his job completely is very strong. You can take down a jailor despite the TP being alive, you can put the Ret in real trouble when they don't resurrect, you can put the TP claims in real trouble if they fail to protect, etc. Consort is just as capable of deception and causing mislynches or misexecutions as any other mafia role. Janitor's creation of claimspace is still easily countered by the town just being at least decent, and Medium, and Retribrokenist, and the fact that 1 claimspace won't be enough for 4 mafia. While claimspace is important, it doesn't mean other utilities in the mafia all go below it. Blackmailers punish whispering, and counter whisper-made directions very easily, something that is common when you have the jailor meta going on in Ranked.