Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31256456-20190830060531/@comment-28112409-20190901232817

ZedKiller13 wrote: I am going to make a stand on this right now. People need to know the direct truth on this matter or Vert is going to continue hiding it from people.

I am going to provide a list of points on this matter. First on the matter attempting to be discussed, and the next on who should be listened to.

On the topic of boards made for off-topic stuff, keep in mind I am the one who made that board. It was somewhat of a community decision, and this decision was to move off-topic posts from ToS-based posts away from each other. Keep a board for those who want to stick with the Town of Salem theme in this place and those who don’t care whatsoever in this place.

If you have a problem with one of the boards, that’s fine. They do serve no purpose here, but at the same time they have a lot of purpose. ​​​​​​I don’t want to see the Ask Questions board filled to the brim with “murder the user below you” and other useless boards. '''There's no explanation for the English here beyond you having a stroke. Vague oxymorons do not get your point through. What in the world is having no purpose and a lot of purpose simultaneously supposed to mean?'''

If you do not like the board, oh well. I don’t want to remove it, but you having a problem with it is fine. Just stay away from that stuff and focus on the game-based stuff. You never have to force yourself, nor will the staff be forcing you to visit those boards. ''' No quotes supporting this obviously, why would there be any? If you read any of my responses, you know I've clearly differentiated between what is my view and experience, and how I'm arguing that flaw xyz is negatively affecting every actual ToS fan involved and not just myself.'''

Fun and Games is for ToS-related funsies, but it seems it isn’t doing its direct purpose. It can be merged with Off-Topic if that’s what the community wants here.

The community here is consisted of three sides. Those who play Town of Salem and want to create new ideas around it, those who DON’T and would rather focus on creating useless threads that serve as a fun little thing to get into within a ToS wiki community bear in mind, and the hardworking staff keeping both in availability and balance. Balance as in nothing is forced upon you. You choose what you want. '''These 2 sentences are lies, and can quickly be disproved by breaking every rule listed in the forum rules. '''

If someone is going to make the debate that the balance is off, and those who do ToS-related stuff get drawn to the Off-Topic side, I can’t force people to stick to one side. '''You can, you choose not to. Significant difference.''' People come and go constantly.

All wikias, whether they have a board for useless posts or not, will still have users who write up stuff irrelevant to the point of the wiki. Vandals are a lot more common under the criteria for irrelevant content, but shitposters and their activity are largely correlated to how the staff deal with them, not the innate nature of a wiki. Wiki’s have forums, all of them. '''Discussions and forum boards are two separate things. If you're claiming forum boards as identical to discussions, you're wrong. Otherwise, you'd be correct. '''The wiki-related stuff is there and easy as heck to access. If they have a place for useless posts, it’s because they want them managed appropriately and kept away from merging with the important posts. Which still happens and merges with the RWA by the way, and you've chosen to keep completely useless posts in exchange for inconveniencing every single user who utilizes the RWA.

I have never once used whatever the heck RAW is, nor do I constantly see ANYONE talking about it or it’s use. Everyone I know here uses the Recent Wiki Activity to find and look for things they want.

If certain boards need to be fixed up, please tell the staff, as a community while, not one single person, what is wrong and what should be fixed.

The staff page has nothing incorrect about it. Please do not tell me I am dumb for saying it’s incorrect and leaving it, it’s a staff page. It tells us who the staff are, their specific ranks, and their activity levels which are severely misrepresented, and what they like to do for fun or around the wiki. If you have a problem with the activity part, too bad. Yeah, fuck valid feedback. Those staff are active and can do their job when needed. Dictionary, look up "active".  I recall Vert saying a staff member that is able to provide so much use in such little time is a great trademark of a staff member. '''I don't, though it definitely sounds like something I would've said way back. I'd like to see the specific quote/link.'''

You can find that on my application to become an Administrator. Link?

The staff are looking into the members currently. Some staff have vanished, some just aren’t doing anything. '''You said they are active, and then you contradict yourself in the next paragraph. You can't make this shit up even if you tried.''' Things can and will change. But the list of staff and who is staff, or who should be staff, is such a minor thing to focus on over the actual wiki itself and whether it’s doing everything the correct way. '''While the content pages are pretty much as best as they can be aside from the occasional vandal, discussions in the forums and their correctness in whatever it is they do is still proportional to what the staff reinforce and punish for. This lack of regulation directly ties into the outburst of off-topic threads and activity that was one of the focuses of this whole thread. It is definitely not minor, it is quite significant considering the attention this whole thing got.'''

Now I will get into the controversial stuff a bit, but people need to start realizing this.

When Vertroyer left the staff, he removed his ability to provide a direct viewpoint on how things work. He had the rights to speak out for staff being one himself. He no longer does with his own decision to leave. '''Not really relevant considering I am criticizing the staff here, not speaking for them. '''

Vertroyer has built himself an empire of respect. This respect is infamy. '''Dictionary, add respect to the list. I appreciate the unintended compliment though.''' He is infamous for the responses he gives out. But infamy is popularity for the wrong thing.

Vertroyer’s common argument playout is to provide an argument using facts and statistics and statements commonplace everywhere. In order to project his view and to shade out the smaller views, he uses multiple layers of diction, emotional thought words, and good sentence organization. It makes the reader think about it. '''I read the smaller views too by the way. The diction, "emotional thought words" and good sentence organization are not a purposeful choice. They're natural because of my background with English language. I've always developed my vocab and tone for general purposes that require it. '''

To top it off, he combines the use of language with the use of finding the simple, most minuscule points and using them against the person he wants. Those people, if they don’t see through his tactic, end up hating themselves and finding no reason to argue against him. '''Not really, there's a lot of minor and irrelevant things that are either passed off as a joke or never addressed when I argue with someone because they don't matter. Also very interesting that there is practically no quoting or support behind this, just heresay on Zed's part.'''

Because he makes that person feel terrible, and his long, diction-filled argument hides the hypocrisy inside, and draws even more people to his side. '''Or maybe the argument was genuinely correct? Have you entertained that side of the argument at all? Hypocrisy like where, you say things but where is the actual basis behind them? Why is being too correct suddenly equating to being a scummy manipulator? You could throw this excuse at anyone who argues well and it would sound plausible, that doesn't actually make it so.'''

And lord I will say it, the role reviews he is known for contain every single bit of this tactic so that role creator ends up feeling like crap for a little idea they created. He urinates on the ideas to match his point of view. He makes us staff look like inconsiderate idiots who laze around doing nothing all day. That’s pretty insulting, and hypocritical considering he USED to be a staff member himself. He calls out people, specifically Rubik and I recently, of doing such terrible jobs and not giving a care for the world about the wiki or how the community should be managed. '''I mean yeah, I used to be a staff member but you have to remember that the main reason I "used" to be a staff member and am not in there any more was specifically because I acknowledged my own inefficiency and to an extent, being an inconsiderate idiot who didn't devote his time sufficiently, hence leading to my departure. Hypocrisy is not a valid counter-argument here.'''

Please make a big note Vertroyer has not played Town of Salem in a very, very long time. He does not catch up on what people look for. He does not have firsthand experience of the strategies people use in the game. He does not try to look at the other points of view of people, only himself. Me, me, me. This is an interesting point to bring up, but all it really did was highlight your ignorance of game design.

'''What everyone needs to learn about any multiplayer game is the fact that they can all eventually be "solved". Solved in the sense that you spend enough time to a degree where you pretty much have knowledge of the game mechanics and foundations nailed down to a T. After that, all the metas become necessary to follow through if you want to win, finding an answer to every opponent's move becomes second nature in mere split seconds rather than a decision you need to think about and reflect on during or in between games.'''

'''Games as complex as MOBAs like Heroes of the Storm can eventually be solved, even though they have dozens of heroes fighting over around a dozen different maps with dozens of different talent combinations for each hero and virtually endless combinations of teams. Developers mitigate this by constantly and frequently pushing out balance changes, new heroes, reworks to keep the meta shifting and to allow for a skill ceiling for everyone to still reach for. '''

As such, you can't leave a game like HotS for a year and come back pretending you know everything because a lot can change in that amount of time for a game this complex.

'''Town of Salem is undeniably way simpler and shallower in skill, roles are designed in a much more linear manner, metas are dictated by the town and always fork evils into either playing along for a chance to win or straying away and getting ultimately destroyed. '''

'''I haven't played ToS for a long time and that is 100% true, but what has exactly changed in Ranked (only game mode I played in my last few hundred games)? Jailor meta, LO/protective meta, counterclaims, rets no longer waiting for jailors and giving every other role a higher degree of importance, mayor games with whoever is a confirmed townie though it's usually the jailor, claiming and revealing early as an investigative to avoid suspicion and to provide a constant stream of potential information. Anyone who goes off-meta don't end up discovering a new way to win or play, they're just flat out ruining it for their team and they need to go with the flow. Granted, NEs and NKs are a separate thing and have adequately more room for creativity in plays but the extensive restrictions on said plays are still there due to the metas the Town faction has employed.'''

'''Town of Salem is nowhere near as complex as other games to be able to sustain meta changes on its own without updates, and the updates have tanked significantly in their frequency. Until the next significant update shows up, ToS is essentially a "solved" game for the several months it has been around without game-changing updates. It's not radical or crazy to come back after such a long amount of time and find out all the optimal strats are still the same.'''

'''So no, I still have firsthand experience and knowledge of the gameplay as far as I'm aware. '''

'''Despite Zed claiming otherwise, I do look at other points of view and genuinely have my viewpoint changed even if it does happen every once in a blue moon. Example: I changed my mind about Forger being a complete waste of a slot after a few back-and-forth posts with Pokechurin in my first debate me thread, and he can testify to it too. I gave him that one. '''

To hide his brash responses and the inconsiderate responses to those who want to make the game or the wiki better, he uses an extremely calm attitude everywhere else. On his Discord server. On threads tailored to retiring staff members, everywhere else essentially.

'''Oooooooo I like this one, this one has a really nice story behind it. I will preface this by admitting that I'm really not good at conveying what I wanted to convey with this style of writing, that's pretty much a given.'''

'''It's not really a secret by now, but I like to watch Pyrocynical, videogamedunkey and Shammy for game reviews. They have this cynical attitude and exaggeration of insults to act as comedic relief,  I really loved it and I'd be downright lying to say I wasn't influenced by them. In hindsight, that style of writing wasn't very effective in emotional engagement here because it's in text format so I kind of moved more of those elements towards metaphors and less direct insults, but I haven't participated in stuff here for such a long time that the changes weren't given much opportunity to be expressed.'''

'''Yes, I am lot more relaxed everywhere else because I know they're more casual/formal settings and I'm also talking with friends I've known for a much longer time or I just consider them places where I can lay back and relax. I still throw insults every now and then because I don't really care, I play with Haw every now and then on VC so he would pretty much know.'''

'''I wouldn't say I'm really trying to hide them, considering I'm keeping them out there for everyone to see and I don't go back to delete them or something. Yes, I am rash in my speaking on the wiki because there was an attempt at something that definitely didn't work out as intended. I apologize for that.'''

I'm also not trying to be professional or calm in this specific thread at all, this is all pretty much pent up frustration being let out, but this doesn't generalize to my overall attitude everywhere else because I'm not as interested or enthusiastic in making something of the same sort I used to do, or because I know said format won't work.

But here? The only thing we look forward to is waiting for Vert to make his appearance and continue calling us stupid names and raising his own ego higher. I call a lot of people and things names, that's not really made specifically for people in the wiki. '''More importantly, why are you looking forward to it if it's that bad? It suggest happiness and excitement for something by using the phrase "looking forward to", so you're admitting that you enjoy these sort of insults and names if anything. Add "looking forward to" to that dictionary list.'''

Some warning signs to look for are direct insults to people. Look for bias in his arguments. Some very good points of them just showed up recently:

“please tell us what the ever living fuck you donkeys have been doing for the past several months?”

“I’m not asking you to turn into Benito Mussolini you fuck, I do dictatorships multiples better than you ever would anyway.”

“No one said anything about blocking, banning, or propaganda, that was just you. Get off the shrooms, this isn’t the Cold War.”

'''Non of these are bias though, they're just insults. Again, I'm not trying to hide that I'm frustrated, I acknowledge that if anything.'''

These are simple ways of making the other person feel like a pile of horse poop being stepped on in an abandoned trail. Attack the user themselves so they feel terrible, pride yourself on the fact you beat someone in an argument '''I haven't ever done this by the way, I've stated multiple times that I don't pride myself on the insults specifically nor do I care at all if someone goes praising me for them. They're not the main point behind my responses.''', even though you used useless, brash words only make to attack them and not to actually prove your point. '''So you respond by ignoring all the other parts of a response that aren't insults and tunnel vision on the insults specifically to make your own viewpoint look better? Isn't that cherrypicking? Doesn't that make you much worse than me in terms of bias? I haven't seen a solid instance of bias either, you have provided no quotes or examples on that yet.''' Then proceed to improve that ego and accept the biscuits and flowers from those who end up following you. Don't forget to add "accept" to that dictionary list, very important.

You can call us whatever the heck you want, Vertroyer. '''Why thank you for that privilege. I'll gladly accept your scapegoat offering. Just keep in mind you aren’t doing anything yourself to actually provide a good argument No basis for this, actively ignoring all instances where a role creator actually took something from me and had a beneficial exchange, fell for the "they haven't expressed learning therefore they haven't learned" error, criticism of bad argument entirely based around ad hominem, you never focus on how other people feel or what they are going through Did you know that I study psychology as a major? Did you know that emotional baggage is inappropriate to address in a game wiki? Did you know that your emotional measurements have no evidence supporting them nor are they shown as reliable?, you have little care for anyone here, you have no recent experience with the game already addressed this''', and you are screwing people over on a wiki about a GAME you DON’T EVEN PLAY. already addressed this: the sequel

Call us what you like. Thanks again. Continue to downgrade people in order to help yourself. Keep acting all happy-go-lucky everywhere else. Acting, onto that list please and thank you. Continue being immature and using good English to ruin everyone else’s day. You can ruin people by being good at English?

Congratulations, you passed English. You know how to use thought provoking words. '''I've noticed a weird trend of you criticizing me being narcissistic, but you literally feed into said narcissistic habits that you criticized by throwing free compliments and being hilariously agitated by it. I don't have narcissism as far as I'm aware, you need to go through some x-item questionnaires and listen to actual observations from more relevant friends and community members, and there's also measuring your 3 perceptions against each other. You don't fill any of these to have a reliable viewpoint in calling me egotistical.'''

Now try to use different ones that aren’t used to attack people who simply volunteer to manage a wiki, who have lives themselves, and try their best. ​​​​​I already do though, you just chose to ignore them. My father was a volunteer policeman. Same properties as a police officer, without the pay. He witnessed the stuff they go through across the world.

We don’t try to dictate people, we don’t try to force people to stick to one side. '''Actually, I just noticed this considering you love using "dictate" so much. Definitely add that to your dictionary list and take your forum rules into consideration. ''' You however, do. You attack people with words to improve your own false ego.

You can say whatever you want, you can continue to attack me constantly, you can continue to hate on the staff trying to do their job, you can ban me from your Discord And I would ban you because?, but you need to step it up and get a real life Add real life to that dictionary list. Focus on improvement instead of pointing out problems directly and then hating on those who are attempting to fix them. Point out problems that are an actual crisis.

'''As far as improvement goes, it's not just going to happen because you want it to. If someone is biased or wrong, they don't change unless someone steps in to point said fault out in a manner that either fits in with their current parameters for quality or changes it entirely because said parameters were flawed or incomplete to begin with. Introspection is not a reliable way of improving yourself and all of you are very aware of it considering you aren't a single member dictating everything and refusing to listen to any feedback whatsoever. '''

'''Yes, I used dictating, the word tingles your fancy a lot judging from this response despite not knowing the correct definition for it. '''

'''The point I want to deliver is that you claim not dictating stuff, but you already do considering you guys have forum rules you enforce. Anyone can claim to be something and that they're not doing something, but everyone has these invisible parameters that don't show unless they are touched or reached.'''

'''You claim you haven't been dictating people, but you've always been in every occasion where you followed the forum rules. Dictation isn't that black and white, you laid and enforced those rules using the authority you possess, that's the whole reason you peeps are staff, that's one of your major purposes in this wiki. How do you, of all people, not know that?'''