Board Thread:Role Ideas (Rework)/@comment-32994909-20171221154748/@comment-32881402-20171223211944

Octometaknight wrote: The only reason the Executioner and Jester are Neutral Evil and not Neutral Benign is because the other Neutral Evil roles were not ported from SC2 Mafia which would make the only Neutral Evil role the Witch, so they just made the Neutral Benign roles that can/have to kill people into Neutral Evil.

What makes a Neutral Benign is not that it can't possibly harm town; just because Executioner and Jester are prone to harming town does not make them evil roles. What makes a Neutral Benign role is that they have no definitive 'side' and are malleable after their goal is complete. (Amnesiac and Survivor can win with anyone; so can Jester and Executioner, which is why they should be NB and not NE). Amne and Survivor are both extremely Town-sided. Survivor 
 * The Amnesiac is a role that can remember any non-unique Town role, or any non-town role (including unique roles) from the graveyard. If it dies as an Amnesiac, it loses. So, Amnesiac will want to pick their role earlier in the game (to avoid dying, since death is more probable with less players alive). Since Vigilante and Jailor both can't kill on night 1, the chances of scum dying so early on is very low. Now, since Amnesiac would like to remember as soon as possible, the graveyard would most likely consist of 1-3 Townies (depending on NK and mislynch, since d2 accurate lynches are sometimes untrustworthy). By n2, Amnesiac would like to select a role and chances are, it's a Townie, making Amnesiac very Town-sided. Also note that the ranked rolelist at the time was very Town-sided, giving an incentive for Amnesiac to remember a Town role.
 * The Survivor is a role that can win with everyone and has 4 vests (giving it basic defense when equipped). If it dies, it loses. Since the Survivor only has night-time protection, it will want to protect itself at day, when it is most vulnerable. Note that Town has majority and often controls the lynches. In order to win, <span style="color:rgb(200,200,0);">Survivor must either claim a <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town role, or try not to be hung by <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town while claiming <span style="color:rgb(200,200,0);">Survivor. Since <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town already has majority, the <span style="color:rgb(200,200,0);">Survivor isn't really considered one of their important 'allies', since it can turn at any time. So the best solution is to kill it and prevent any sudden turn on <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town. Unless you get <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town to like you.... usually be harming scum. So you can either claim a <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Townrole and risk a counterclaim, or you can claim <span style="color:rgb(200,200,0);">Survivor and help <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town. Especially in previous rolelists where <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town has extremely high winrates, the <span style="color:rgb(200,200,0);">Survivor really doesn't have a good reason to not side with <span style="color:rgb(69,191,0);">Town.

<p style="line-height:inherit;">~My blog about Neutral Benigns. Apologies for use of templates.

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Executioner and Jester both generally harm Town. Once their goals are complete, they have no alliance. Having no alliance may be the definition of the Neutral Benign alignment, but I can have a Neutral role which has the ability to destroy the whole of the Mafia on night 2, but can win with both Mafia and Town. The ability is Town-sided, but it CAN win with Mafia. The potential to win with the other faction doesn't make the role benign. As illustrated by how Amnesiac and Survivor are both Town-sided, the potential wincon is NOT what makes a role benign. With this, you must deal with the wholes rather than particulars, as they all play a part.

In the Executioner's case, its goal beforehand is directly and absolutely harming Town. So this contributes toward harming Town. But once the goal is complete, it has no alliance. This has no value since it's - well - no alliance. Unless there is anything else that may make the Executioner Town-sided, it is definetely scum-sided.

In the Jester's case, its goal is generally bad for Town since it wastes a day's lynch and chances are, its post-death ability harms Town since Town often has majority. While it can harm scum a lot if the kill ends on scum, but generally it is scum-sided. Unless there is anything that may make the Jester Town-sided, it is definetely scum-sided.

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My problem, however, lies in the roles rather than alignments. They are awful for meta and balance for reasons I have said in posts above. This destruction of meta makes the game a lot less skill-based and a lot less fun. They're also evil for us balancers, since they have no night ability and rely completely on daychat. There is no consistency in the roles, which makes balance impossible. Their helpfulness to scum and harm to Town is terribly inconsistent and not all that effective. That's why they can't be in the Neutral Evil alignment. They are not Evil enough to be in that alignment, but they are not nearly benign enough to fit in to Neutral Benign. The remaining alignment, for roles generally awful for the meta (Vampire) and roles which have very little impact on the game (Pirate), is Neutral Chaos. The roles can stay out of Ranked forever and can still be used in Custom. Neutral Chaos is the alignment for miscellaneous Neutral roles which just don't work.