Board Thread:Role Ideas (Rework)/@comment-37174991-20181128184723/@comment-28112409-20181206094511

Forger is indeed UP, down there with Framer and Disguiser in terms of uselessness. Let me explain why.

Forger has to forge wills but he can't just write randomly and call it a day. He has to make it convincing and he has to make sure he does it without making any mistakes or writing things that don't match up with the victim's role, which is a super risky gamble if you try to do it blindly or you require a Consigliere to be with you for it to work. You guys remember Disguiser, before the rework? Remember how terrible that role was without a Janitor to help it out?

If you don't know, old disguiser simply swaps names, cosmetics and positions with whoever they target if the target ends up dying the same night. All you needed to do to bust the disguiser and kill him was simply put your name on your will. That was literally it. So unless you had a Janitor alongside you, the role was as useless as a Framer is.

Forger suffers the same devastating problem where he needs a consigliere to be able to forge correctly without making mistakes. So now it's a just a big lottery. You gotta hope one of the RM roles is Forger and that the other one is also consig for the whole forger thing to have unique value.

What if you don't have a consig but you just put random names with random nights to confuse people? For the most part, that stuff doesn't work because a lot of roles either should not be having names and nights in their will or they need to have more than names in their wills, such as Sheriff who needs to put down whether their targets were actually NS or something else. Let me list all of them for you: Sheriff, Investigator, Spy, sometimes Lookout, Tracker, Psychic, Vigilante, Veteran, Jailor, Medium, Retributionist, Mayor, and Transporter. That is way too many roles that can instantly have Forger's "Nights and Names" tactic plummet down to the floor.

If someone reveals their role publicly? Tough luck kiddo, because a very common thing that happens is people asking for them to reveal their wills and also the fact that they do reveal their wills, which makes Forger unable to forge the wills since everyone knows what their real will is like now and even leaving the will blank is useless because again, the Town has already seen what the will has to offer.

Let's not forget that if a Spy is there, they'll just throw their will out and show a double visit on someone when they notice something fishy about how the will looks like, which can counter successful forges entirely.

So now you'd like to tell me, he can just leave the will blank and prevent information from reaching the town. So he's still somewhat useful, right? He would've been, if it wasn't for the grand existence of the best Mafia Deception role in the game, found inhabiting the flair next to my name.

The Janitor is just way better at will manipulation than Forger is and also has a few bonuses that make him all the more worth it:

1-Forger deletes the will entirely, meaning not the mafia nor the town can benefit from it. Janitor not only hides the will entirely, but he has access to it and can share it with the mafia so they can use it, making him much more efficient at cleaning wills than Forger is

2- Janitor hides the role of someone entirely, Forger doesn't. In conjunction with the hidden will, Janitor gives his mafia buddies claimspace and information Forger can only dream of doing.

3- Janitor cannot be countered by Spy, since he's already done the deed and the cleaning is already public. Spy cannot exactly do anything to stop a Janitor after that.

4- Forger needs to know the role of someone or a consig besides him to be effective at all. Janitor doesn't need either to be valuable to the mafia.

With all that established and bearing in mind, I have not the slightest idea how or why Faraday thinks that Forger is alright. It would be more accurate if he said "Forger is moderately powered in the right hands against a bunch of fucking dumbasses grouped together as Town". Against even a decent Town, your skill with Forger is completely irrelevant and you will be countered, figured out and completely invalidated.

I also have no idea what ascended level of stupidity SgtZait witnessed in the Town he played with, but he should definitely not be basing his judgment of Forger based on games with such a weak Town.

My opinion is that Forger should either have a unique added bonus with his will manipulation that gives him a different and equally or similarly valuable use with Janitor's cleans, or just rework his function entirely to be completely unrelated to wills and to focus on something else because Janitor is dominating right over Forger in that field.