Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20171002223259/@comment-28859532-20171008091622

(<--- ) = my rebuttal

= my previous argument

Jallybwan wrote:

(In comparison a Consigliere will be relatively unknown since his targets won't get any notification whatsoever.) ''What a surprise, Potion Masters can do the same! Fancy that! (<-- Every three nights!)''

The Ambusher's target might not be visited by anyone. Wasted night. (<--- Even if noone visits the Ambusher's target they still got some sort of info. Compare it to the Lookout: You often times have the situation that noone visits your target. You still got one info though: Noone visited your target. That info should be useful if the Ambusher is in the right hands, especially in the later stages of the game)

(The fact that Medusa can only "alert" 3 times makes her role pretty bad.) So... Veteran's bad? That's a flaw in your logic, Vet is the superior TK in most circumstances and everyone knows it (<--- Veteran is town aligned, while the Medusa obviously is Coven. That is a huge difference!)

But with the Necronomicon, it becomes a Powerful killer with an added Janitor effect. That balances it out, I'd say... (< Only if you are actually lucky enough to get it in the first place. Besides that the Coven Leader has to die, before the Necromonicon even becomes relevant for you (or any other Coven member infact). And after that happened town might already have the advantage they need to win)

GF is useless the first night, and likely for a few more afterwards. It just sits there and orders the Mafioso around, only stepping in when said Mafioso is indisposed. (<--- But unlike any of the Coven the Godfather has the HUGE advantage of being immune to almost all attacks, which secures atleast one killing role for later stages if played correctly, whereas any Coven could just die to a random shooting Vigilante N2)

Janitor's reliant on the killing roles doing something, and if both of them are indisposed then IT becomes useless. (< If both of the Mafia killing roles are indisposed, the Janitor (or any Mafia role for that matter) will just be upgraded to a mafioso which allows them to do the killing. That is basically the equivalent of a Coven member receiving the Necrominicon)

(How does controlling a dead Sheriff really help you for example?) Oh hello there Serial Killer... Hello there WW... And hello there Sheriff claim if you actually find one, so it's worth a shot. (< You said it yourself: IF you can actually find one. The chances of you actually finding the NK are pretty low, especially when NK is an unknown WW or an Arsonist. And finding someone unsuspicious doesn't help you at all, since you already knew that.)

(But even then those corpses can only be used once, which often times results in the Necromancer just being useless.)     Once again, the Necronomicon saves the day! Ez killing role! (< Especially in the Necromancer's case, this is just the equivalent of a RM being promoted to the Mafioso, with the only exception that Necromancer doesn't "lose" his role. This also means that he has to reveal himself to actually kill someone. On the mafia's side however, it is always crystal clear that a RM has been upgraded to the Mafioso)

(The Potion Master might be one of the more useful Coven roles, but he can still only use his potions every 3 days, which is a long cooldown time.) The potions are timed so that you have to use variety. AND THE NECRONOMICON STEPS IN AGAIN, FANCY THAT! (< Basically the same argument as for the Necromancer. The Necromonicon is given out at random. And you may argue: "I still can use my other potions unlimited amounts of time". Yeah, that might be true. But while you use your other potions, the Coven is missing out a nightkill, since the CL has to be dead in order for you to get the Necromonicon. And if you only use your killing potion, you are basically a Mafioso.)

False. Coven has an equal, if not higher kill count than Mafia even without the Necronomicon, and it's only a 2 night wait. (< That is excactly the problem. That 2 night wait may already give the edge to the town, since they have great ways of outing the Coven (Sheriff or Psychic). The 2 more nights the Mafia have may also just give them a big advantage, if they kill the Jailor and Mayor for example. Also the Coven's kills are more "over time" which allows the town to react, while the mafia kills are straight forward: KILL!)

(The townies have a lot of new strong roles that help them defeat the coven pretty easily. The Psychic will get 1/2 evil player every second night, which might just be enough to kill a coven before they even had a chance to attack.) I fail to see how that doesn't work on Mafia as well... Oh wait, it does :D (There are 2 new TP roles which makes the job even harder for the Coven.) At least the Coven are equipped to deal with these new threats. Mafia was designed for a weaker game overall. Coven's stronger because it needs to deal with stronger enemies, ya get me? (< No, that's wrong! (Break). Yes, sure. The Mafia might also be affected by these new powerful Town roles... but are they really? Who says that we have to look at the "Coven" Mafia? If we just take the Mafia from the "normal" game, they won't have to deal with ANY of the new strong roles. Which automatically makes your second argument invalid: The Mafia is back in the enviroment they were designed to be strong in!)

Medusa stones people to create claimspace, CL phucks around with everyone in general, Potion Master and Poisoner can work together to cement the PM as a Doctor... the list goes on. (< Yes, but all of those roles are really relying on each other to actually be deceiving in the first place (as you said yourself). The Deception Mafia roles however are strong and able to deceive on their own and are even stronger in certain combinations) 

(If you take the Coven Expansion Mafia into account, they even have anotehr way to kill. Besides the Mafioso and Godfather they also get the Ambusher, which could potentioally lead to 4 mafia kills before the Coven could even kill 1 person.) How the phuck did you end up with that number? You can only ever get 2 kills a night MAXIMUM, and if the Ambusher gets seen then he's phucked. Coven can kill at least 1 person a night until the CL gets the Necronomicon, at which point the chain of killing starts and the Coven overtakes the Mafia. Don't try and establish the Mafia's dominance over Coven in terms of killing power, you'll get shot down. Coven has a higher kill count and that's pretty much final, unless you can find some gamechanging situation to tilt the scales in the Mafia's direction.(< How i got that number? Pretty simple. The Coven don't get the Necromonicon until night 3, meaning both the GF and the Ambusher could have already killed 1 person per night EACH... Which obviously results in 4 people being dead. Your argument of the Ambusher being "phucked" when he is caught, is invalid. Any of the Coven may be caught the same way, especially since most of their abilties alert the townie affected by them, making it easy for a Lookout. I also don't see how the Coven overtake the Mafia in terms of killing power N3. If the Coven Leader gets the Necromonicon one "consistent" way of killing people with the Medusa combo falls out. Sure, the CL can now consistently kill people, but mafia can do that ALL THE TIME. And if you want to argue: "But we still have the other killing Coven roles" i can only say 2 things: "Ambusher" and "Killing over time allows reaction"