Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20181230235210/@comment-37322933-20190124135641

Pokechurin wrote: NapstablookInfinity wrote: Pokechurin wrote:

NapstablookInfinity wrote: Pokechurin wrote:

NapstablookInfinity wrote: Pokechurin wrote:

NapstablookInfinity wrote: Pokechurin wrote: Forger is probably the saddest role in all of existence that isn't Framer

Forger can't even forge wills because it has no info to work off of. The best thing it can do is wipe someone's will. Which, ya know, is very useful for getting rid of TI info and THAT'S ABOUT IT.

Oh, and TI's usually reveal their info, making this ability even MORE useless. but disguiser is shit because it's ability is completely useless, literally just a backup plan to its claim. A backup plan that never fucking works! Like how mental is that?

At least forger can SOMETIMES be useful. Disguiser is NEVER EVER useful because it's only ability is 100% useless and it's essentially just what I like to call the "Minion", which is just a Mafia role with no abilities whatsoever. Except disg has an ability but it's so useless that if it didn't have that ability the role wouldn't change much. Even WITH a consigliere, disguiser is still fucking useless because disguises just don't ever fool anyone ever. Ever.

Forger on the other hand, can be useful quite often, especially when a Consig or even a Blackmailer is around. It can forge a Sheriff or Investigator that chose to stay silent because they don't have any info (e.g. investigating the revealed mayor before they revealed), and they can frame someone else to make them look evil. And oh, Retributionists and Mediums don't really counter forger that much because by the time the day is ended, if the forger tricks the town, the player that is framed will most likely be lynched. Again, TI's always reveal their info, if they are smart. They know of possible Janitor and Forger problems, and reveal early.

Framer is predictable as hell. Everyone sees it. Disguiser isn't really useless actually. I've played plenty games where the Disguiser can easily play what it needs to play- Town like. They don't work if you make crappy wills and stay silent, but you're supposed to be an active member of Town. But I've seen in most games, the investigatives don't generally post their will EVERY SINGLE day, unless it's a spy. I don't know what kind of games you play, but I seldom see an investigative who posts their will every day even if their target dies or something like that. But any mafia member can be town like. And you will have to depend on the exact same role you are claiming existing in the game, and cross your fingers that you don't get killed early before you can perfect your strategy, or don't get discovered by a vig or jailor or get found by a sheriff. Every mafia can be townlike. But not all mafia can do it reliably with comfortability and versatility. Forger can't even claim LO reliably.

Forger is useless if TI are smart.

Disguiser is at least somewhat useful in doing its job. Disguiser is rarely useful because:

1) It can seldom even disguise as the correct person, and sometimes if the person they disguised as dies, they would have to pick a new role to disguise as, which can be bad when you've already settled on that claim.

2) Yes, disguiser can claim a role and act like town more comfortably and reliably, but it doesn't change the fact that you are still not the role you say you are, and if you make one little slip up, the entire town will know you are a disguiser.

3) There is literally no point to the role or it's ability. Even if it fools town and then? What? Oh a sheriff claim died and was a sheriff. Boo hoo. Moving on, lets VFR 12, they haven't claimed yet. 1) Jailor meta means actually, this isn't true. There are plenty of targets in a Jailor meta to choose from. And Jailor Meta is prevelant in ranked.

2)  "One little slip up and the town knows you are a disguiser"

yeah that's why you play well lmao

"but you're still not the role"

It's Mafia Deception for gods sake, of COURSE you're not the role. But you can still claim easily and get away with it easily as long as you play welll.

3) That's not how it works lmao. Your regular ability is to pull off a trick so the town essentially gets mislead into lynching others. This helps you to gain Mafia majority. If you die (which your goal shouldn't be) you at least have some deception created, esp. if you get lynched. Sheriff claim gets hanged, claims that (townie) is mafia, you are revealed to be sheriff, sure, it might not work, but the fact that it's a role that is ABLE to do such things is the point.  Yeah no, the town protectives and lookouts aren't just gonna claim day one. There is one fucking role in the jailor meta that you can pretend to be straight away, and that is the jailor. Need I even mention how stupid that idea is? So I'm just going to cross "jailor" off of the claim list.

Oh and one more thing:

You said that forger is easily countered by spy. That isn't exactly true, since the other mafia visit could literally be from any member of the mafia, not just forger. Even the heccing disguiser can sometimes visit a person killed by the Mafia. Also, your point is hypocritical because disguiser is just as easily countered by spy. Oh, a member of the mafia visited John Hathorne and john claims Vig. Another person dies and is vig. That is probably a disguiser then, sweet. 1) TP might not claim d1, but again, you don't have to claim right away. You can claim earlier, you can claim later. Versatility. TS and TI claim early, after all.

You're assuming no one claims d2, d3, d4 and that the Disguiser is going to be accused on d2 right away. That's a stupid argument.

2) I actually didn't mention spy in this argument. And people aren't stupid, they can obviously tell that if a person who dies is visited, it's either Forger/Consort/Janitor. We aren't playing RP where people Blackmail the person who's going to die lmao

I'm just saying. You're putting random scenarios that are incredibly rare for all of your examples. I'm just saying, most of the time, Forger is less useful than Disguiser :)

TP might not claim d1, or d2, or d3, but you don't have to claim TP. You claim whatever fits best in the scenario. This is one heck of a quote train, but, Poke, I've seen ranked Mafias who have one of their RMs visit a killed TI to make them looked forged. And it works.

While the role Forger isn't exactly useful when it exists, if it doesn't, the possibility of it can be used to trick the town.

Especially if you blackmail the person that died.

Because if they don't die, they can't say it, and if they do, the town might think an RM is a Forger. If there's another RM taken, then town "knows" who the RMs are and will be unaware of the presence of a Blackmailer, which can be deadly.

Obviously, this doesn't always work, but I'm just trying to say you CAN blackmail who you're going to kill.

Forger = Disguiser, basically. Both are kind of useless but Mafia can still trick town that a person's will is forged or that they are actually a Disguiser. And it sometimes works.