Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20171101070508/@comment-26234016-20171102230514

ProfessorArceus wrote: Addfire wrote: ProfessorArceus wrote: Addfire wrote: DesertStorm11 wrote: Team Yes TacticalThe Godfather himself gains an intense advantage from this. He knows all feedback. If a target was immune, he knows it that night rather than the next night when the Mafioso actually tells him. He can automatically know the roles the Consigliere gets, or what happened to that Consort that suspiciously died to the Serial Killer. You can know if someone was controlled into a Veteran instead of assuming that they weren’t.

'''Godfather is buffed enough already. Repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I say that this removes communication and teamwork, while making the team dependant on the godfather and making other roles less useful.'''

Nay, faith, let me not go into meta. This does not remove teamwork at all. It's an incredibly small buff and Mafia will still have to communicate ideas. A very popular concept that is often associated with this is lengthened phases. See there'd be the same communication, but sometimes the Mafia would gather a little more information. It doesn't discourage teamwork; people must still discuss what should happen. The Mafia chat still exists - the Godfather just works as the 'commander' or 'head' as it should be. It's a safety net that still has power. '''Again, quit with the safety-net talk. Don't sugarcoat what it is: it's a crux. The Godfather is the most practically powerful mafia role as of now. It is night immune, and chooses who the mafia kill. With the update, the Godfather no longer needs to care about any of their teammates, because they know everything already. '''

Plus, your second-to-last point brings up an important tidbit that I'll talk about below.

The Mafioso also becomes much more powerful. He’s the wildcard in the game. Being able to copy another Mafia’s role I think is exactly what the Mafia needs. It opens up another mystery spot.

'''AGAIN again, I agree. You win here (imo). ''' This buff to the mafia counters NKs. Without this, there's at least some doubt over whether or not the did in fact roleblock the /, giving those roles at least some sense of secrecy. With the buff to the mafia, that secrecy is gone, nerfing the weakest faction even more.

Mafia need NKs to win. Almost always, Mafia is extremely dependent on NKs. Only stupid Mafia would out the NKs. And this is gone exclusively to the mafia. Town will still be slightly unsure. Ultimately, Town is the decider in killink NKs. All NKs have a defense so Mafia are helpless against them. '''First, don't balance based off of intelligence. Not all Mafia are smart. I've seen a lot of mafia out NKs. Your last two sentences are a tad bit unclear, but I'll try to figure out what you're saying, correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth. '''

'''- First you say that Town is the decider in killing NKs. To that, I say, mafia roles are designed for their secrecy - this doesn't change with the update. Update or no, mafia is easily able to manipulate from the shadows. They can influence the town extremely easily. '''

'''- Second, you say that NKs have a defense so Mafia are helpless against them. This is not true in the slightest. Mafia are usually the first to find the NK, and once they do they can simply claim an Investigative role and lynch. '''

Y- yay?

I'm not about to have a debate with someone who thinks that you have to take intelligence into account. If you know anything about the Mafia, you'll know that you need the NK to help you. It's a meta. We balance off of metas because they're stable. We don't balance off of the possibility that Mafia will be stupid, or that Town will be stupid because it's unstable and makes it more impossible to balance. I've had this discussion with several people including role idea moderators. We balance off of meta. It's the obvious way to balance.

They can influence the town, sure, but Town have majority and ultimately it's up to the Town to kill them. Any smart Mafia would know not to out the NK so early to be the 'first to find the NK'. Prof. My entire point is that intelligence isn't a valid argument to base off of. You said above, 'only stupid mafia', to which I reply that intelligence isn't a way to argue. There is a garantee that there will be stupid mafia.

Also, there are going to be many situations where Mafia will need to out an NK. Maybe you're near the end of the game. Maybe you don't want to risk a werewolf. Maybe you've lost a janitor to the serial killer already, and don't want to lose anyone else. There are many scenarios I can think of where it's advantageous to reveal the NK. And this makes it easier.

When you say, "I've had this discussion with several people including role idea moderators", well, you may have been a big shot on the forums but that doesn't hold as much currency on the wiki. I agree that you should balance off the meta, but don't bring the forums into it.