Board Thread:Role Ideas (Coven)/@comment-28092296-20180922144925/@comment-33601385-20180925055728

ZedKiller13 wrote: TheRetroPioneer wrote: Hex Master: Addresses Issues: Hex Masters are buffed Framers Hex Master is too similar to the Arsonist role

Hexes do not mess around with investigation/interrogation results

'''The role should always mess asround with this, removing it just confirms the Hex Master instantly. Oh, HM result while theres no vamps and jester is dead. Must be framer/HM, instant lynch. This gives them zero claimspace by removing it.''' This leaves Framer with a unique ability, and helps remove the similarities between the Mafia and the Coven faction.

Both factions should have a little similarities and there is no reason why the Framer should stay unique. People will receive a message when they are hexed; similar to the old Arsonist: “You were hexed!” This is good for creating paranoia, and insures that people still have a way of knowing that a Hex Master is in the game and they may all die in one night.

'''Not only does this negate and instantly prove who ISN'T coven, it also confirms a HM exists. Gamemodes like VIP mode or Ranked Practice is a devastation to this.'''

Potion Master: Addresses Issues: The Potion Master is too similar to the Consigliere The Potion Master’s healing ability

'''The Potion Master is more accurate than a Consigliere because it involves magic and it makes sense overall since you have a long cooldown. Healing should not be removed whatsoever.'''

The Potion Master has two of every potion—like how Medusa has three stone gazes. This insures that the Potion Master cannot act like a stronger Consigliere, and helps remove the similarities between the Mafia and the Coven faction. With the Necronomicon, the killing potion has no cooldown, but the reveal/healing potions have a cooldown of three days. The current Necronomicon allows the Potion Master to reveal/heal every night, which is quite powerful and starts to overshadow the Doctor and Consigliere. The Potion Master can still kill every night if the killing potion has no cooldown. Killing every other night/every three nights is a bit rough, especially when the Potion Master is solo Coven.

This is a major nerf, forcing the Potion Master to copy the Mafioso-type of trend with constant kills, which YOU have stated to not directly relate to the Mafia in any way.

Medusa: Addresses Issues: Medusa is too similar to the Janitor

'''So what? ​​​​​​No changes are needed.'''

Stone Gazing will only hide somebody’s will. (The town will be informed that their will was “taken by the Medusa” or something)

'''Hey let's nerf the Medusa to become a killing Forger, cause that's useful. When a role is killed it narrows down what is left. Having secrecy is NEEDED.''' This leaves Janitor with a unique ability, but still ensures that Medusas cannot be outed by people leaving who they visited in their last wills

'''Coven should be better than Mafia, not worse in terms of ability use, not the KILLING use. Coven should have a way to kill but have normal abilities better than the Mafia cause it fits with the magic lore and it makes sense. Both factions can decimate each other quickly.'''

Poisoner: Addresses Issues: Does not address any major problems

Necronomicon changes; Doctors can still heal poisons, however nobody will receive a message stating that they were poisoned

Useless, I'd rather have it so poisons can't be seen once you have Necro AND can't be healed. This can create paranoia and makes Poisoners harder to spot by Trackers This makes Doctor’s only buff against the Crusader just that much larger

Necromancer: Addresses Issues: Doesn’t address any major issues.

Pestilence corpses cannot kill the Necromancer because that’s stupid and only makes people yell at inexperienced players

Potion Masters exsist but yes it makes sense.

Coven Leader: Addresses Issues: Controlling killing roles over and over again

If you rely on controlling killers to win, this basically means "okay controlling bob into jailor, oh now i cant control him so he kills me, sweet"

Cannot control the same person twice Since the Coven Leader has the highest Necronomicon priority and therefore will be able to kill people starting night three, most controls will be on a neutral role or a Godfather, forcing them to attack the Coven Leader’s specific target

(Second thought, this should be in the rework section. Well, it's too late now, I guess) '''This is just a major nerf to the Coven overall that completely ruins what makes the Coven the Coven. The Coven can have similarities to the Mafia, but the factions are different in terms of use:'''

The Coven relies on killing people off while you have some roles who can help ability-wise.

The Mafia focus on deception and trickery, and use the power of lynches and one night kills to win while staying out of suspicion.

Zed the issue is how much better coven is half of the mafia roles are useless or outclassed by others while all coven roles can prove to be viable

The deception part doesn’t work most of the time because mid-late game most claims are known and or confirmed making a lot of the deception abilities less useful

Coven can have a kpn of around 3 if they are lucky mafia at absolute best can have 2 with an ambusher but ambusher is very limited

This is because with a 4 person mafia you can potentially ambush 12 people that’s if all are visiting roles on average you can get like 6 people which sucks

Main issue with cl is if they find nk

They make sk their puppet

They prevent Arsonist entirely

Turn gf into a puppet

And can make a juggernaut kill them self

This is really bad it removes the risk part or risk reward with coven making it way to op imo

Framer needs a buff badly poison needs to be detectable without the Necronomicon otherwise it’s always better then the mafioso which is unessasary

Coven is just a bit to powerful compared to mafia currently the both need their fair share of balances