Thread:Jallybwan/@comment-32783587-20180125220929/@comment-31680260-20180128190540

Anons unite wrote: Jallybwan wrote:

Anons unite wrote:

'''effects on the world? you just said he never intervenes! '''Bad wording on my part. I meant that He doesn't jump in and fix everything magically, for reasons already stated + other stuff, most likely.

'''the difference between the wind example and god is, everyone knows the wind is real and we have actual, physical proof of it. '''Trust me, I'm sure you'll find someone out there who doesn't believe the wind exists. But if you want "actual, physical proof" just look in the mirror. The human body is insanely complicated, each part designed specifically for a certain function, all linked up to serve the brain, which in turn does a lot of stuff we don't even understand yet! We are not here by chance, Anons, that doesn't happen. Something, someONE, must have designed us.

see, this leads back to my original point: if god would just intervene more, it would

1. make more people believe MAKE more people believe? Anons, you're getting something wrong about Christianity, and it's a mistake pretty much everyone makes. Believing in God =/= going to Heaven. Simply accepting that He exists isn't enough.

2. make less bad things happen In the short run, perhaps. But I say again, if God simply came down and revealed Himself, fixed everything, we wouldn't learn. We'd repeat the same mistakes again, you know we would. Learning the hard way is the best way to prevent those mistakes from happening again.

3. shut athiests up! No, it really hecking wouldn't. People don't want to believe, they won't believe. That simple.

but christians would rather hide behind the "plan" idea as an excuse for all the bad things god is doing. Excuse you. When has God actively done anything you'd consider bad? Even giving an example doesn't validate this point, because you believe "bad" means something different to what I think. And if you don't believe in an ultimate Good, "good" and "evil" simply become relative. You say Hitler was evil, a Nazi says he is a good man. But what Hitler did to those Jews was WRONG, plain and simple - therefore, Hitler was evil. See where I'm going?

where did god ever say all of this was his plan? God has a plan for all of us, individually. Is it not logical to assume He also has a plan for us as a race?

'''proving god is one thing, but try and prove he is actually doing well! '''The heck do you mean by this?

he has a firey pit of hell for anyone who hates him, basically SCARING lots of people into believing You, Anons, are a liar. You're taking things out of context, only serving to prove my point about atheists taking things out of context. I'm not even going to dignify this with a proper answer, since you (and people reading) should know this. I've explained it before. If you want to actually argue with me instead of simply throwing false facts around, try and argue like Addfire. At least she was a smidge of respect.

'''he lets all the bad stuff happen for "plans" or "raising awareness" or "forced gift" despite the holocaust as logically not worth any of those things.... i mean, think logically. ignore god out of this. do you think the holocaust is worth killing 20 million people? remember, ignore god. if you say no, you can say its part of gods plan, so saying "no" doesn't automatically mean you hate god. i just want an answer.''' Hitler made that choice out of his own free will. That's not God's fault. If you say it is God's fault, then you're saying God should take away EVERYONE'S free will, and make us into automatons. You wouldn't like that, would you? Nope. We are given free will as a gift, of course some people will abuse that. So I don't NEED to answer this point, since whether or not it was "worth it" to you or I, it was Hitler's choice. The blame should not fall on God for it.

'''i.. dont really get it? is that bad? remember, i have never been to a church or read the bible in my life. call me ignorant, whatever. but how does dying on the cross take sin away? '''You literally just need to read what I've said. I tire of going in circles. Jesus took all of mankind's sin onto His body, and then died. That sin died with Him.

'''theres still a TON of sin today, so jesus didnt get rid of THAT many sins. '''Our sin is taken after death, not during our life on Earth. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

'''plus, we did NOT all go to heaven, clearly. so jesus' plan failed. '''No. I believe Jesus' plan was to open a way into Heaven, and He succeeded in doing that. We still have to make that choice, but without Jesus, there wouldn't BE a way, and we'd all be in Hell.

'''did he know that dying on the cross would have that effect, or did it just happen to turn out that way! this was before humans were even born! '''What, taking sin with Him? Why wouldn't He know?

i actually think the fairty tale -cough- RELIGION is pretty cool (if that sarcastic joke was rude pls let me know i will stop). but you call athiests illogical and not wanting to admit they are wrong. When '''have I called atheists illogical as a blanket statement? I've said that A LOT of them twist facts out of the Bible, yes, but not all of them. Addfire doesn't, for example.'''

'''ok, so what, 70% of them? A LOT of chrsitians twist facts out of science and logic, but not all of them. Jallybwan (mostly) doesn't, for example. '''My point is not to tar everyone with the same brush.

'''but the bible does not prove god exists. it was written by man, not god. so if people twist facts from the bible, it doesnt mean they are wrong. maybe they were actually extremely inaccurate when writing the book about god, and we have it all wrong! '''The Bible lines up with itself extremely well - how would multiple humans over hundreds - if not thousands - of years pulled that off? Especially since we can't even preserve texts from after Christ's birth! I ask you seriously, if the Bible doesn't prove God was guiding the men who wrote it, what does? And you don't even have to look at the Bible to see proof of God - look around you, at how INTRICATE the universe is? Logically, SOMEONE must have made it intentionally. Chalking it up to chance is basically like saying "you see that car over there? yeah, a tornado made that by pure chance."

'''why though? i like when people make fun of athiests! '''That does not mean you have a right to insult Christians, and expect them to laugh like you do.

'''how do you KNOW he does it for a good reason? '''I've had no reason to believe otherwise, and every reason to trust that He knows what He's doing. My own family should be living on the streets, and on paper we should be completely out of money - but we've SOMEHOW been staying afloat for more than FIVE YEARS!

'''the more i hear about it, the  more i think about "god being perfect" is not all as it's cracked up to be. if god was perfect, we would have a perfect world. this is clearly not a perfect world (in basically anyone's eyes). '''This is false. Barber analogy, by your logic nobody should have a beard.

'''if it IS in god's eyes, then thats screwy, because its clearly not perfect, god! '''It's clearly not perfect in God's eyes, given the fact that He sent His only Son specifically to REMEDY our imperfection.

'''and "he wants people to ask for him too?" okay god, ima ASK you to please stop the suffering in middle east and north korea, because you clearly have the power to do that, and it is obviously not ideal. hmm? nothing? thought so. '''Yes, because you TOTALLY meant that and TOTALLY weren't being sarcastic. Mhm. That's not asking, Anons, that's mocking. And that's not even considering the fact that this is pure speculation by me - I have next to no idea what His actual plan is.

'''would you rather suffer and learn from it or not suffer at all, with no risk of that ever happening! '''Not the same. The only way to have the second option is to completely remove free will from the equation, and if it's alright with you, I'd rather keep that. I'm sure you agree with that, at least.

'''you cant prove that he does it for a good reason, his plan could be slowly turning the world to shit. '''The world's going to shit regardless, because of us as humans. And it'll get worse. So maybe His plan involves the world going to shit, but I don't think He would try to force that to go any faster than it would naturally. He's patient.

'''what if satan was the nice one, trying to overthrow the ruler god, then boom. just because of one revolt, he sufferes forever. '''"Just because of one revolt." Do you have ANY idea what you're on about? Do you have ANY idea just how serious a revolt is - especially since Lucifer took a third of the angels with him? Plus, you have no evidence, or even REASONING, to back this up. What makes you say Lucifer is the right one, when he was the one that

'''and that if gandhi did not accept jesus, and hitler did, hitler lives a good afterlife and gandhi, just because he believes in a different religion, burns. if you dont knwo much about god, how do you know that hes good? '''Gandhi, while he was a good man I'm sure, still sinned. You must realize that while different sins have different earthly consequences, to God, sin is just that - sin. One type. If Hitler did indeed give those sins to Jesus, he would be forgiven. God is perfect, yes? He can, and wants to, forgive our sins. If Gandhi wouldn't let Jesus take his sin, that's his own fault. I'm not saying that makes him a bad man, not at all. But the main point here is that "sin is sin".

'''physics are just how the world works, they didn't come from anywhere. '''The very laws of physics THEMSELVES state that you cannot create something from nothing. God is different, since He's been around before those laws existed in the first place. That's not even talking about His literally infinite power. This is why it's so hard to argue on either side in an argument regarding God, since He's everything we cannot imagine as well as the things we can.

'''sure, our laws of physics might be wrong, but we have been examining them for years. and he breaks the laws of physics that he created. it is FAR more likely that we have  the laws of physics CORRECT and god breaks them, than we have it all wrong just because of god. '''I never said either was true, at least I don't think I did. We might have them wrong, or God might have broken them. Either way, it fits with God being all-powerful and such.

'''so are you saying our laws of physics are wrong or that they are right with the exception of god? im not really clear on your motive.. so say it so i dont argue back the wrong thing accidentally. '''I'm saying that either one of them could be true. Or something else entirely. I don't know.

'''yet you can pass of the fact that god is real. thats an opinion. '''It's not. I've felt His touch in the same way I've felt the wind. I KNOW He is real, this isn't something you compare to "Red > Blue".

'''think about it. you know god is real (and that say, buddhism is fake), right? well, there are buddhists who know their religion is real, and that christianity is fake. '''I'm not knowledgeable to address this. Sorry. Please take it up with someone who knows more about it than I.

'''so at the end of the day, there are 4 scenarios. 1, they are both real (actually that wouldnt really work... because both religions state all other ones are false). so there are 3 scenarios. 1. chrsitians are right, buddhists are wrong. 2. buddists are right, chrsitians are wrong. 3. they are both wrong. '''I choose to believe situation 1, but that's my own experience. Again, I'm not qualified to address this yet.

'''so at the end of the day, AT LEAST ONE person who "knows" their religion is true, is false. therefore, knowing something does not make it true. so just because you know god does not mean he is true. '''Thing is, it's not just me who was drawn specifically to Yahweh. Many scientists trying to disprove CHRISTIANITY - not Buddhism, Christianity - have become Christians themselves. Look up "Scientists Who Believe book" (can't remember the author's name), and "A Case for Christ". I haven't heard of anyone doing the same for another religion. If it has happened, please show me!

'''you can't just say "well i know god is real and that the buddhists are wrong" because their belief, the buddhists, are just as strong as yours. they could say the exact same thing as you, that they touched god, whatever whatever. '''God touched me, not the other way around. See above comment as well.

'''so, KNOWING god is real does not mean it will be true, because there is a possibility that another religion is true, which they KNOW is true. '''See above.

'''whichever one is more logical. do you think 2 is more logical, just because of some (<"PERFECT">) guy's plan? i think 1 is more logical. but to you, god>logic, so yeah pick 2 and allow all this suffering. '''So you're saying we should all be average, none of us should be different, because that's somehow more LOGICAL?! In what sense is that LOGICAL?! Furthermore, how does following God allow suffering as a direct cause of following Him?

'''Also, God is not just "some guy", because He is literally perfect. He has the bigger picture. He can see EVERYTHING, not just the things our piddly little human eyes can see.'''

ahem... " also ignore my main argument for now- it was too long to be fun anyway. that thing covered most of my points in the short little one anyway. 

'''but there are still 2 main things that i said in the main argument that i feel like NEED to be said: first is the paradox with the omnipotent being: could god make a stone so big he couldnt even lift it? if yes, then he isnt all powerful because he cant lift it. if no, then he cant make everything, so he is not all powerful. therefore, god cannot be all powerful. '''I'm sure He'd find a way to do both, considering the fact that if He's omnipotent, paradoxes probably don't apply to Him. He knows whether or not this sentence is false. I know this probably sounds like a cop-out answer, but it makes logical sense if you think about it. People will say how "convenient" it is that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but being convenient =/= being false.

'''but that actually might help you win this because many of my arguments rely on god being all powerful if you read my main one. what i do know is that hell is scary as... hell.... so i might end up following pascals wager. it just seems illogical that we all should be tortured forever just because someone was nice enough. '''I think it's perfectly logical, only not to human logic. But thinking like a human kinda gets us nowhere in this instance. Sin should be punished, that's simple enough. God cannot abide by sin, also simple enough. I believe Hell is just separation from God, who is everything good. I'm on the fence as to whether or not the "lake of fire" is literal or metaphorical, but that's more relevant to my own faith than this argument.

'''the second one- the unicorn paradox logical mind experiment theory thing- prove unicorns arent real. whatever you say can also be thrown against god.''' Unicorns might well be real, I don't know. Just because we haven't seen any doesn't mean there aren't any. Heck, there might be another planet in which unicorns are the dominant species!

This argument is slowly irritating me more and more, especially since you've actually started twisting both my words and facts.