Board Thread:General Ideas/@comment-27128035-20190813051443/@comment-27128035-20190817192914

ZedKiller13 wrote:

BobbytheBlobby wrote: '''This is a good idea on its own. Confirmed mediums are a pain in the butt, but I see little use of the fact it’s a great Mafia strategy to claim confirmed Mediums together. ''' Eh, there are a lot of things that can go wrong though. Investigatives, other Mediums, etc. 'This just fucks the Hypnotist, but it essentially forces the Transporter to reveal Day 1 and reveal who they transported every single day for the Town to avoid confusion. Please note this essentially confirms them more likely, but is a good Mafia claim. ' No, I don't think it would. I'm aware that in Coven, Transporter is a go-to claim for Hyp, but first of all, Hyp can still fake Trans, its just that now every role can do so, and secondly, Hyp can fake other roles anyways using their abilities. '''Will address, Spy needs no changes. ''' A role that gets most of its info by doing nothing? It's quite obvious that being able to see Mafia Visits is the more valuable thing about the Spy. In addition, bug isn't a very healthy ability for the game. It's not really an investigative ability, it's more like a "if I see someone getting roleblocked I can confirm myself" sort of an ability. Also, Spy can find out if a Mafia member has been roleblocked/jailed, use PoE to eliminate Mafia candidates based on visits, and find Neutral Killing. Not a really great role.
 * Remove Retributionist
 * Make Medium unique
 * Transport notifications are removed
 * Spy needs a rework. I would remove Maf Visits for the time being and add a limited day ability that allows them to close on the Mafia. Whether Mafia should get a notification about it or not is up to debate.

Sure, Mafia can fake it. I like to claim Spy with accurate results D2 and see if there's another Spy. If there is, we kill them and I start faking results, but it's still risky with investigatives and Mediums and whatnot. '''I don't think a cap is needed. Three bodyguards suck, sure, but the odds of that are extremely low. Three Sheriffs either make or break the game. Three Investigators gets out of hand.''' '''Note: NONE OF THEM ARE EASILY CONFIRMED. With an Arsonist or other TI in the game nothing can happen. It shuts out RT as they die, but can cause good Townies to be lynched while evils slowly close in. ''' Odds of a terrible spawn of 5 Spies are better to be none than to be low, wouldn't you agree? Also, a cap of 3 should be big enough that it can encompass fake claims as well. Jailor
 * Non-unique are capped at a maximum of 3.
 * Completely rework the role list to:

Town Protective

Town Investigative

Town Investigative

Town Killing

Town Random

Town Random

Town Random

Town Random

Godfather

Mafioso

Mafia Random

Mafia Random

Neutral Killing

Neutral Evil '''The role itself needs no buffs to help it claim either role. If no Spy exists, it's very easy for a Consigliere to claim Investigtor or really anything else as long as its early on in the game. ''' Lookout has no Mafia counterpart, and thus Lookout is generally a trusted claim if you can catch a visit. By adding this, you reduce the confirmability of Lookout. Also, I think Consig should be able to see their target's visit as well, but I'm more focused on Ranked right now and Tracker isn't a normal Ranked role. '''This doesn't change anything really, all it does is confirm a roleblocker presence. Only a Spy can prove or disprove if they are a Consort. ''' Mafia can fake a RB on another RB'ed guy without them being CC'ed and proven false. '''This simply changes the investigative result of that role, which is what it does anyway. I don't see a need for this, anyone who shows as Framer/Vampire/Jester is suspicious whatever the hell they claim. Only a Spy disproves it. ''' Now that I'm thinking about it, you're right, this isn't a really good Mafia buff. Another suggestion I liked for Framer is that its frames last two nights. '''Lookout checks? And anyway, it just makes them appear to seem innocent for a single night. Timing that exactly would just motivate the disguiser to not do anything. The only good thing here is keeping your disguise of that person permanently, or for say until they die. ''' I disagree. Disguisers would always hide their Mafia pals early on when they have no information. '''So they now change the role they appear as? Useless! The will of that target not only shows their exact role, it completely proves a Forger exists in the game. This feels like the strategy for the pre 1.5 Disguiser, place your name in your will. In this case, just place your role. ''' Yes, it changes role and will. And w ell, it isn't supposed to be super powerful. Just imagine a situation where you dont know who killed who, and you were able to change the roles of two towns. The drawback is that Mafia will pop up as the killer for the forgeries, and Mafia needs to work around that. Go make someone a Jester, or maybe have one of your own claim Transporter (works well with my change). Up to you how you might want to play it.
 * Allow Consigliere to see who their target is visited by in addition to seeing their role. Allows them to fake Lookout better.
 * Multiple roleblock messages are removed. Multiple roleblocks result in one roleblock message
 * Framer now frames someone as a selected role for the night.
 * Rework Disguiser. Selecting a target will keep their disguise on until a new target is reselected. Targetting a member of the Mafia removes their disguise, but hides them from Lookout/Sheriff checks.
 * Rework Forger. Forger can now also change their target's role flip. Limited to 2 use.

Your role is already usually placed in there anyway.

'''Now, if I misread this, and it still forges their will like normal, that's an issue by itself. Why change their role if you only need to forge certain information of that will? All that will mainly happen is their will gets wiped. And a wiped will later on in the game, especially with a role that requires a will normally, which is EVERY TOWN, doesn't provide much use. ''' Forger isn't supposed to be an easy role, you need to forge those who are more suspicious than the others. Forging a Jailor or a confirmed Sheriff will just reveal there's a Forger, but a forgery on an unconfirmed Doctor is more believable. '''I can guarentee you the Town wins by lynching two Mafia and the Neutral Killing if the Jailor or Bodyguard doesn't kill them first. This isn't effective in a normal Ranked match. ''' Doesn't make Witch an evil survivor though, which is a concept that I don't like. It's still anti-town in the sense that it needs to prevent non-town lynches, but a Witch can now play in a much more flexible way. '''The Jester doesn't need any buffs whatsoever. A self-frame is not needed for a role that relies specifically on day chat in order to win. They can't win at night, only at day. Making themselves suspicious for one night is very swingy, and more likely will just be used quickly the first two nights.''' '''Scrap this, just with the Jester problem, its a day ability. Losing the immunity makes no sense either whether they have won or not. ''' Nah. It allows Town to dispose of a potential Kingmaker that could side evils.... the same for Mafia. But Exe probably doesn't need frames. Jester having frames is fine imo tho. '''I do hope you know the only use for this is to move the Werewolf’s killrate one night over and to deter the TP/LO meta. However, people are smart. Anyone important will just claim the next day and ask for it then. This also forces the Werewolf to reveal their existence right off the bat, which just prompts more people to start revealing powerful Townies as no Arsonist can silently douse them.''' TP/LO meta N2 is not as effective. The reason why the TP/LO meta n1 is so strong is because it creates a group of people who are unconfirmed, and those people have high evil concentrations. Lookouts, BGs, Doctors, Town Supports, Jailor can all be easily confirmed. Sure, Lookout doesnt spawn in every game, but neither does Retri, and I'm sure that you don't like that role either. All this confirmability gives Town a fantastic setup D2, allowing them to easily lynch an evil. If in the unlikely case, a Townie is lynched, it's either because a fake lead was given on the target or they were in the suspicious box. This gives Jailor a good execute N2, and by taking out people from this category one by one, it allows Town an easy victory most of the time.
 * Witch doesn't have to live to win, they just need to see no more than two non-Townies lynched at day (excluding themselves).
 * Jester has an ability to frame themselves, limited to 2 uses. Jester should have one-time death immunity.
 * Executioner has an ability to frame their targets, limited to 2 uses. They should also have one-time death immunity instead of permanant. They lose this upon victory.  I suppose it can be swingy, but a NS find on a Jester can really hurt their ability to win, especially in a SK game. Two frames could be too swingy though, I'm fine with giving Jester one frame.
 * The full moon appears on the first night, and again on the third, and so on.

By D3, Town is probably close to losing majority and treads on thin ice, whereas D2, this would likely not be the case.

I don't particularly like this solution though; it's the best I've thought of so far. A WW attacking into a TP/LO N1 is at least 50% of the time, suicidal. Another solution I've thought of was buffing Arso to allow it to douse all visitors though, with the douse notification being readded, though I'm not sure if that would be too much of a buff. Let me know how you think these changes are. I've done this to buff weak Mafia roles, nerf powerful Town roles/confirmable Town roles, and allow for more ways for investigatives to obtain fake results. In addition, this removes a lot of the CC meta and the nasty TP/LO meta. I think every one of these changes would help the state of the game (maybe the NE and Spy ones are unnecessary though and could hurt Town too much). I want to reduce the Town's 75-80% win rate to about 50-55%. The only issues with Ranked is the role list just by itself. The fact there are going to be confirmed Townies of certain alignments facing off against randomized members of the Mafia and Neutrals is enough to propel Town to victory no matter what Mafia spawns. What needs to happen is that the Mafia are not subjected to randomization entirely. The Town should be entirely subjected to randomization with select alignments. The Jailor, Town Protective, and ONE Town Investigative should be in every game. Town Support, like you suggested, should be scrapped entirely from the role list. Town Killing is fine as it is overall. Veterans are useful late game, Vigilantes are useful to the town when directed right. I agree list has a problem but it's not the only problem. I'll explain a bit further down.

Overall, Jailor, TP, TK, and ONE TI should be in the game. All others are randomized. If you want to help evils more, the answer is this: make a permanent Witch in the game. We could replace NE with Witch, but that doesn't fix a whole lot of problems. Mafia/NK still lose more often than not in Witch games.

Remove a random town, lowering it to 8 Townies. Add a Witch permanently in the game along with Neutral Killing and the Neutral Evil. This is what will help the winrates for all sides and give evils a confirmed ally that can save their butt. Nah, town losing majority N1 that OFTEN isn't good.

If you want to help the Mafia, swap out one Random Mafia with a confirmed Mafia role of good use. A confirmed Blackmailer will hurt any Spy claims and make whispers much less common. A confirmed Consigliere hurts Investigator claims and helps the Mafia pin down good Townies. A confirmed Janitor just fucks over the Town, simple as that as long as kills get through. It also fucks over the Retri. I don't think this would change much though. A hidden BMer listening to a Lookout information being transferred to Jailor isn't really that detrimental to Town....What this would do instead is make everything even more public. Lookouts would post in public instead, which still is in the Town's favor. This doesn't solve the problem. And Spy is a common enough fake claim from not just BMer, but other Mafia roles.

I think a confirmed Blackmailer would fit best as Town relies most on discussion. The Random Mafia should be left for chance as it is now.

Now, anyone who says anything about votes being screwed over, you're an ignorant moron. This assumes all Mafia are alive Day 2 and no info is known. NK needs the Mafia dead quickly, and NE can change up the game. The Town may have spawned good Townies, some event could happened and two evils get killed, anything. Anything can happen, it's about how likely it will happen. I have an example. In a Mafia + SK game, there is about a 53% chance that they both target a Townie. This doesn't consider things such as them killing the same target, TP/LO, death immunes, but it's a fair representation of how realistic two Townies dying N1 is.

The roles themselves are fine as they are. They give a good balance to the game flow. What kills Ranked isn't just metas, its the role list being able to win the game for Town Day 3. Randomization. The roles themselves need little changes. Alright. Yes, there is a problem with the Role List which allows for CCes, but this isn't what's making Ranked lean into Town's advantage, at least not on its own. The TP/LO meta and the useless Mafia roles really hurts Mafia's chances.

Framer and Disguiser are completely countered by Spy.

Through the TP/LO meta, Bodyguards, Doctors, Lookouts can all be confirmed. Town Supports are also easily confirmable. Jailor is a confirmable role. And Spy, through their Maf Visits thing, can eliminate Mafia candidates. And we got other Investigatives too. And let's not forget the Retributionist. Not all is guaranteed to spawn, but regardless, it's quite common enough that Town can create a group of good lynch candidates, as I observed earlier.

The role list is what needs all the changes.

(Framer is iffy, Werewolf is situational)