Board Thread:Role Ideas (Neutral)/@comment-26316098-20180519201520/@comment-35356104-20180520041844

Although lemonader666 can probably phrase his/her words better, but I agree with his/her statement. Framing ability against TI overlapped with DragonClaw66's reworked version of Framer, but this isn't that impactful compared to reworked version of Framer, while NE should be stronger than factional role to stand alone. Most importantly, Framer does nothing counterproductive. Since this more "does more things", I still manage to understand this a bit.

Speaking of the "does more things" part, it's true that existing NE might have harm evil with the wrong steps, but they never HARDCOUNTER evil by the mean of mechanic, but SOFTCOUNTER with the natural risk of ability itself.

Softcounter vs Hardcounter:


 * Witch control a possible Vigi to shoot themselves. The "Vigi" turns out to be a Mafioso. That's the potential negativity within the ability. This can be prevented with strategy by always controlling a Vigi claim not to themselves but a confirmed Townie. This is what we refers as SOFTCOUNTER. Wasting a use of Janitor/Forger ability is consider as softcounter as these scenarios are always varying, not fixed as they are but only common occurence. Who knows Witch might have the same target as the person they controlled? Maybe both of them hate GamesManiac at the same time


 * HARDCOUNTER is meant to describe an ability that is specifically designed for certain purpose and can't be intervene by any possible way. As long as this role successfully casted their ability on any scum roles mentioned, the effect is guaranteed. The only way of interfering is by disrupting the visit. Any individual tactic can't change the outcome without interposition of third-party. In spite of the fact that such hardcounters exist for balance purpose, I personally dissuade you not to pose threat to their allies with the default setting of ability.

For my own opinion, I suggest you to make a role with independant continual ability that stay invariable regardless of situation. If ability or attribute differ according to the situation such as the presence or abscene of particular role, it may contribute to the inconsistency of its own power and overall gaming. The good example of such is Framer. If TI is absent from the game, it is totally ineffective, but things are completely different when there are 5 Sheriff. I prefer not to spark similar polemic by creating ability or attribute as such.