Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-31256456-20190830060531/@comment-31256456-20190901211719

ZedKiller13 wrote: I am going to make a stand on this right now. People need to know the direct truth on this matter or Vert is going to continue hiding it from people.

I am going to provide a list of points on this matter. First on the matter attempting to be discussed, and the next on who should be listened to.

On the topic of boards made for off-topic stuff, keep in mind I am the one who made that board. It was somewhat of a community decision, and this decision was to move off-topic posts from ToS-based posts away from each other. Keep a board for those who want to stick with the Town of Salem theme in this place and those who don’t care whatsoever in this place.

'''I said that removing the boards was a consideration, so it doesn't necessarily have to happen... I would personally probably conduct a poll.'''

If you have a problem with one of the boards, that’s fine. They do serve no purpose here, but at the same time they have a lot of purpose. I don’t want to see the Ask Questions board filled to the brim with “murder the user below you” and other useless boards.

If you do not like the board, oh well. I don’t want to remove it, but you having a problem with it is fine. Just stay away from that stuff and focus on the game-based stuff. You never have to force yourself, nor will the staff be forcing you to visit those boards.

Fun and Games is for ToS-related funsies, but it seems it isn’t doing its direct purpose. It can be merged with Off-Topic if that’s what the community wants here.

Yep (personally)

The community here is consisted of three sides. Those who play Town of Salem and want to create new ideas around it, those who DON’T and would rather focus on creating useless threads that serve as a fun little thing to get into, and the hardworking staff keeping both in availability and balance. Balance as in nothing is forced upon you. You choose what you want.

If someone is going to make the debate that the balance is off, and those who do ToS-related stuff get drawn to the Off-Topic side, I can’t force people to stick to one side. People come and go constantly.

'''The balance is off- and you can't force people to stick to one side, you're right. But there are other ways to encourage others to review roles, do mainstream edits, etc. '''

In a way, ToTM is a way of encouraging people AND a way of showing achievement..

'''If Staff were to promote more events, create role review contests, etc. to get the community more active and balanced in a way, this could be a solution... to say that nothing could be done is not true... but it would need more active staff, something that is probably not possible right now.'''

All wikias, whether they have a board for useless posts or not, will still have users who write up stuff irrelevant to the point of the wiki. Wiki’s have forums, all of them. The wiki-related stuff is there and easy as heck to access. If they have a place for useless posts, it’s because they want them managed appropriately and kept away from merging with the important posts.

'''Agreed, for the most part... which is why I have not taken a direct stance on it '''

I have never once used whatever the heck RAW is, nor do I constantly see ANYONE talking about it or it’s use. Everyone I know here uses the Recent Wiki Activity to find and look for things they want.

If certain boards need to be fixed up, please tell the staff, as a community while, not one single person, what is wrong and what should be fixed.

The staff page has nothing incorrect about it. Please do not tell me I am dumb for saying it’s incorrect and leaving it, it’s a staff page. It tells us who the staff are, their specific ranks, and their activity levels, and what they like to do for fun or around the wiki. If you have a problem with the activity part, too bad. Those staff are active and can do their job when needed. I recall Vert saying a staff member that is able to provide so much use in such little time is a great trademark of a staff member.

I would like a set definition of active.

You can find that on my application to become an Administrator.

The staff are looking into the members currently. Some staff have vanished, some just aren’t doing anything. Things can and will change. But the list of staff and who is staff, or who should be staff, is such a minor thing to focus on over the actual wiki itself and whether it’s doing everything the correct way.

'''...which clearly, there are issues that should be addressed- issues that have been presented several times. My slight frustration with the Wiki is due to the lack of inaction.'''

Now I will get into the controversial stuff a bit, but people need to start realizing this.

When Vertroyer left the staff, he removed his ability to provide a direct viewpoint on how things work. He had the rights to speak out for staff being one himself. He no longer does with his own decision to leave.

Vertroyer has built himself an empire of respect. This respect is infamy. He is infamous for the responses he gives out. But infamy is popularity for the wrong thing.

Vertroyer’s common argument playout is to provide an argument using facts and statistics and statements commonplace everywhere. In order to project his view and to shade out the smaller views, he uses multiple layers of diction, emotional thought words, and good sentence organization. It makes the reader think about it.

To top it off, he combines the use of language with the use of finding the simple, most minuscule points and using them against the person he wants. Those people, if they don’t see through his tactic, end up hating themselves and finding no reason to argue against him.

Because he makes that person feel terrible, and his long, diction-filled argument hides the hypocrisy inside, and draws even more people to his side.

'''I do agree with this- Vertroyer is an excellent debater and some of it definitely rubs the wrong way. When you're obsessed with winning, it can often go too far.'''

And lord I will say it, the role reviews he is known for contain every single bit of this tactic so that role creator ends up feeling like crap for a little idea they created. He urinates on the ideas to match his point of view. He makes us staff look like inconsiderate idiots who laze around doing nothing all day. That’s pretty insulting, and hypocritical considering he USED to be a staff member himself. He calls out people, specifically Rubik and I recently, of doing such terrible jobs and not giving a care for the world about the wiki or how the community should be managed.

'''Though I do agree with the fact that insulting the staff members goes too far- and some of his points are invalid- I still believe that there should be changes made to the Wiki that the staff may disagree with. '''

'''Something you might want to consider is the fact that there is no clear answer on why Vertroyer left the Wiki, he says in this thread that it was because he did not want to associate himself with the staff team that did not want change. Although you may consider the fact that he left staff unreasonable considering he had the chance to make change as a staff member, it is worth thinking about the reasoning. So far, it seems to be rather unclear- and from what I've heard I don't think the staff members communicated with Jally/Vert on specific reasoning that they may not want to reveal to the direct public. '''

'''Though I disagree with Vert's way of doing things in general and his brash attitude towards everyone, I do think that it's important to communicate with ex-staff to understand why they left. I have suspicions that it isn't just because of the reasoning they present to the wiki. '''

Please make a big note Vertroyer has not played Town of Salem in a very, very long time. He does not catch up on what people look for. He does not have firsthand experience of the strategies people use in the game. He does not try to look at the other points of view of people, only himself. Me, me, me.

To hide his brash responses and the inconsiderate responses to those who want to make the game or the wiki better, he uses an extremely calm attitude everywhere else. On his Discord server. On threads tailored to retiring staff members, everywhere else essentially.

But here? The only thing we look forward to is waiting for Vert to make his appearance and continue calling us stupid names and raising his own ego higher.

Some warning signs to look for are direct insults to people. Look for bias in his arguments. Some very good points of them just showed up recently:

“please tell us what the ever living fuck you donkeys have been doing for the past several months?”

“I’m not asking you to turn into Benito Mussolini you fuck, I do dictatorships multiples better than you ever would anyway.”

“No one said anything about blocking, banning, or propaganda, that was just you. Get off the shrooms, this isn’t the Cold War.”

These are simple ways of making the other person feel like a pile of horse poop being stepped on in an abandoned trail. Attack the user themselves so they feel terrible, pride yourself on the fact you beat someone in an argument, even though you used useless, brash words only make to attack them and not to actually prove your point. Then proceed to improve that ego and accept the biscuits and flowers from those who end up following you.

You can call us whatever the heck you want, Vertroyer. Just keep in mind you aren’t doing anything yourself to actually provide a good argument, you never focus on how other people feel or what they are going through, you have little care for anyone here, you have no recent experience with the game, and you are screwing people over on a wiki about a GAME you DON’T EVEN PLAY.

'''To be fair- the issues we're discussing don't really have much to do with the game at all. If you care about the community but not the game, you can still have an opinion on how the Wiki functions. The rest, I would agree with, though.'''

Call us what you like. Continue to downgrade people in order to help yourself. Keep acting all happy-go-lucky everywhere else. Continue being immature and using good English to ruin everyone else’s day.

Congratulations, you passed English. You know how to use thought provoking words.

Now try to use different ones that aren’t used to attack people who simply volunteer to manage a wiki, who have lives themselves, and try their best. My father was a volunteer policeman. Same properties as a police officer, without the pay. He witnessed the stuff they go through across the world.

We don’t try to dictate people, we don’t try to force people to stick to one side. You however, do. You attack people with words to improve your own false ego.

You can say whatever you want, you can continue to attack me constantly, you can continue to hate on the staff trying to do their job, you can ban me from your Discord, but you need to step it up and get a real life. Focus on improvement instead of pointing out problems directly and then hating on those who are attempting to fix them. Point out problems that are an actual crisis.

Poke, you have maintained maturity this entire time. Role Ideas will take some work but we will get there.

Anons unite, please contact me on Discord if you want some help on how ToTM currently works or if you have other questions, or on my Message Wall. Please do not interpret anything I say differently unless it’s obviously wrong. The staff page isn’t broken, it’s perfectly fine and serves its purpose.

And for everyone else? I’m not telling you what to do or how you should respond to this. I’m telling Vert to grow up and act like his actual age. You can support him all you want, you can change your mind, anything. You do you. We have the boards on this wiki suited for everything you want to do. Want to post useless stuff? We have that. Role Ideas? We have that. Anything ToS related? We have that and by all means please go visit them.