Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20171018053338/@comment-30154040-20171022010637

Polypies73 wrote:

DuckGamer123 wrote: TEAM GOOD ROLELIST

Alright.

Let's explain each one of them, compared to their previous slot.

Here's a key.

After:                             Before:

Jailor(1)                               Jailor(1)

Town Investigativex2(2)       Town Investigativex2(2)

Town Support(3)                   Town Supportx2(3)

Town Protective(4)                Town Protective(4)

Town Killing(5)                       Town Killing(5)

Random Townx3(6)                Random Town(6)

Godfather + Mafioso(7)           Godfather+Mafioso(7)

Random Mafiax2(8)                 Random Mafia(8)

Neutral Evil(9)                          Neutral Evil(9)

Neutral Killing(10)                     Neutral Killing(10)

None(11)                                  Neutral Benign + Any(11)

1. They are the same.

2. They are the same

3. First, 2 Town Supports compared to 1 Town Support. Here's a probability chart, looking at all possibilities with 2 Town Supports, disregarding Random Town and Any.

X     Medium        Mayor          Retributionist         Transporter           Escort

Me. Me+Me        Me+Ma         Me+Re                  Me+Tr                    Me+Es

Ma.  Ma+Me          N/A               Ma+Re                  Ma+Tr                   Ma+Es

Re. Me+ Re           Re + Ma        N/A                  Re+Tr                          Re+Es

Tr. Tr+Me                Tr+Ma           Tr+Re                Tr+Tr                         Tr+ES

Es. Es+Me             Es+Ma         Es + Re                 Es+Tr                     Es+Es

Double Medium confirms 2 town, which is the same reason Retributionist is unique, because it confirms 2 town. Medium and Mayor lets the dead communicate with the mayor. Medium and Transporter, I can't really think of anything, same with Medium + Escort. N/A is in Mayor + Mayor because Mayor is unique. Mayor and Ret allows the Mayor to be confirmed, and still be healed. Transporter and Mayor protects the Mayor, along with Town Protectives. Medium + Retributionist confirms THREE townies, which is 1/5 of the town. That's a lot. Ret and Trans gives the Transporter a meat shield that is only worth a vote to protect a powerful confirmed town. Transporter and transporter... stop  Finally, Escort + Escort can completely stop the mafia at the start of the game, with some luck.

Overall, reducing Town Supports to 1 is a good change, that reduces the Town's winrates in an appropriate manner.

4. They are the same

5. They are the same

6. We are obviously reducing the number of town/people who will side with town in the new list, so we needed to add town. It can't be town protective, because then EVERY game would have an infinite protection loop, and town would win too much. Town Killing would confirm a vigilante in every game, but for non mafioso, that would be a not happy time, with less claimspace. Can't be town investigative, or town would get information faster. Can't be Town Support, because ^.

This would have to be random town then, so that every game would be different and unique.

7. They are the same.

8. So, 2 random mafia vs 1. Chart time!

X   Disg     Forg     Fram     Jan     BM     Consi       Conso

D. D+D     Fo+D     Fr+D      J+D    BM+D    C1+D    C2+D

Fo. Fo+D    Fo+Fo   Fo+Fr   Fo+J  Fo+B     Fo+C1     Fo+C2

Fr. Fr+D   Fr+Fo    Fr+Fr     Fr+J    Fr+B     Fr+C1     Fr+C2

J.  J+D    J+Fo   J+Fr        j+J        J+B      J+C1       J+C2

B. B+D   B+Fo    B+Fr      B+J    B+B         B+C1        B+C2

C1 C1+D   C1+Fo   C1+Fr C1+J   C1+B   C1+C1     C1+C2

C2 C2+D    C2+Fo   C2+Fr   C2+J    C2+B   C2+C1   C2+C2

So, all alone, most of these roles are uselss, unless it is under rare circumstances. Even together, there are only a few that are really a good combination for the mafia. These are:

Consigliere + Disguiser, Forger + Consigliere, Framer + Blackmailer, Janitor + Janitor, Janitor + Consigliere, Blackmailer + Consigliere, Consigliere + Consigliere, Consigliere + Consort

(notice something?)

So, out of 49 combinations, there are EIGHT that will legitimately benefit the mafia to a point where they will probably win. That's a little over 1/7. And that's in the new role list. In the old one... Well, the only chance that mafia had to get one of these was that the Any + the Random Mafia was one of these combos.

(P.S. 0.432900433% chance.)

With 2 random mafias, it is a 6.3265306% chance.

And that's to get a really good mafia pair.

2 random mafia is balanced, and just to make sure town wouldn't get demolished if any was mafia, they removed the any.

9. The Same.

10. The Same.

11. I already covered why Any was removed in 8, so let's talk about the Neutral Benign.

At first, I was kinda upset neutral benign was removed. But then I started thinking.

Survivor was honestly a boring role to play as, and if town found you, that was it. You would either die, or be forced to work with town. For amnesiac, if town found you, then if you wanted to remember Consigliere to MAYBE give the mafia a chance, you would instead remember INVESTIGATOR. I don't have anything against investigators, it's just that Consigliere is generally more fun. Also, with the new update and Amne being able to remember Unique roles, if Jailor died, and the Retributionist didn't exist, then the Jailor would be back, in the form of an amnesiac. This WAY boosted town winrates, because amnes didn't want to remember werewolf because... it's kinda bad. If the mafia was dead, amnes didn't want to remember Godfather oi Mafioso, and Random Mafias generally died first. Did I say Random Mafias? I meant the(singular) random mafia.

I rest my case. Duck, you are my Senpai. I think this pretty much easily proves hat the new role list is better. Obv changing one of the ts to a rt was good, as usually two ts were too strong. They made the any a random mafia because mafia needed the extra member and having any as nk or vamps was just too trolly and unfair. Finally, due to the fact that there was now an extra mafia member and still the same amount of town, they made nb a rt, just to make sure mafia didn’t tip their odds of winning too much. Seems pretty simple to me. Thanks <3

I wanna add one thing - the percent of chance that 2 TS will be op without considering RT or Any. 32% chance.

So, in 1/3 of games, town gets a good amount of good roles confirmed, essentially winning them the game.