Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-30895062-20180418230519/@comment-33380803-20180419101952

Chengsha wrote: Jamal helped me with this thread. He has the most contribution in this post tbh As some as you know, there will be a future update in which there will be changes to the following roles:, , , , , ,  and.

Me and Jamal are going to predict what happens to every single role and see how accurate we were when the roles come out.

- there are a lot of suggestions for buffing this role, but I doubt Framer will be able to manipulate Investigative results into whatever they want, as it kind of nerfs Framer in a way. For example, if they are investigated the Investigator would think that they can't be framed since an actual Framer would change the result, hence they would think they're evil. Spy is a huge nerf to Framer and almost renders it useless, so...

We think Framer will have astral visits and/or the frame will last for multiple nights, i.e. 2 nights.

The concept of astral is usually a bad idea. It makes way too many roles inneffective such as spy, LO, crusader, trapper, Tracker etc. It also does not make sense for people to be able to do astral stuff. I don't see a need for this to happen.

Makign the frame last 2 nights instead of 1 does not solve the issue that only Inv and Sherrif actually get affected by framer(rather than all TI's). It also rather greatly nerfs these roles, which framer is actually already reasonably effective against (assumign no spy).

Hopefully what will happen is something like this role: Manipulator. Somethign similiar at least, most importantly affecting all TI's.

- Forger is quite hard to use without Consigliere as you do not really know what someone's role is. So we thought that Forger could be buffed, they could steal someone's will at night and read it, giving them an idea of what they could be. Of course, this might promote the strategy of only including visits rather than the 'role' in their last will, but they cannot clear the will totally as they will have a chance of dying on that.

We think Forger, in addition to forging, will be able to steal someone's last will to read for the night and/or have the ability to read a dead victim's original will (like Janitor) after they die and get forged.

'stealign someone's will' seems way too complicated and probably OP. you'd just copy and paste the will and gather so much info. Being able to read the dead victims will is just like janitor except no clean so why have forger then. Imao I wouldn't mind forger being removed from the game, or at least ranked. But at least for a buff, you should be able to make the will in the daytime, giving you more time at least.

- '''We think investigative results will change to give roles such as Werewolf, Poisoner, Serial Killer, Potion Master and Coven Leader more claimspace by placing them with more town roles. It will also give Juggernaut an investigative result, see Juggernaut for more info on this.'''

Do we really need to nerf inv that much? Maybe moving NK's aroudn is alrgiht, becasue they have low winrates, btu why coven leader and potion master? Not really going to get involved in coven though. If Inv results needed to be changed, I'd moreso like to see minimal change, maybe giving NK better claimspace and maybe more inv results if you consdier coven. Pretty hard to tell here, arso could be added to frame results becasue douse is like a frame. don't really need much here.

- It's very OP, so if this change isn't a nerf then someone will probably get fired. Retributionist is boring after reviving someone, it's basically you just become an extra vote and plus it confirms two townies which is not good.

'''We think Retributionist will die on the same night as the revive their target on, if their ressurection is successful. Hence, Guardian Angel will no longer be able to have Retributionist as a target, and Retributionist will not allowed be the VIP in VIP mode. The death would be Unstoppable, like a Vigilante dying of guilt.'''

many problems:

- This will make ret a suicidal role, make it even more not fun to play as, and ultimately could encourage gamethrowing or at the least, a delay in a revive when that is almsot always the best option to do it early. This also does not fix the issue that the revived player is always confirmed as well as any mediums. These problems are very hard to fix, so ret should be removed from ranked. An idea if you wanted to nerf ret would be to increase it's priority, so it will die before it revives.

- It seems since Serial Killer already has a very high win-rate compared to Arsonist and Werewolf, it does not need a large buff. However, we realised that it is weak in Rainbow and other gamemodes where it must face Arsonist, Werewolf, Plaguebearer and other stronger Neutrals.

We think Serial Killer may get a Powerful attack on certain nights and/or will gain a Powerful attack for one night provided he has attacked a role with Basic defence the previous night.

when would he get powerful attack? Why on certain nights? that makes things too situational. The second option does not really help either. Assumign ranked, GF/NE are the only roles with basic defence. And both are generally your allies, and powerful attack does not regains SK's lost KPN back. SK should give the previous' night's will if an escort rb's him, similiar for jailor jailign SK maybe. I mean unless they wanna add KPN, powerful attack just seems to situational and not neccesarily good for ranked.

- This should surely be a buff since Werewolf has the lowest win-rate. It doesn't lul. On non-full moon nights, the Werewolf cannot do anything which can be boring.

'''We think Werewolf, as a buff, can choose to role block someone on non-full moon nights by 'scaring' them. This will cause their victim to receive the default role block message: 'Someone occupied your night. You were role blocked!' This also stops Escort and Consort from being the only two roles that would be suspected of role blocking someone. If a Werewolf role blocks a Serial Killer, the Serial Killer would counter-attack but discover that the defence is too high, hence the Serial Killer would know that the have been role blocked by a Werewolf.'''

Why do we need another rb'r? WW just needs to be removed for it's swing when it ramapages. It's very hard to accurately guess which house will get you more kills. But if you got 3 peopel killed in one nights, the KPN is too high now. too swingy. For a change to the WW, similiar things to SK could be implemented, as well as making full moon nights on odd nights rather than even nights.

- It's quite unfair the whilst Serial Killer and Werewolf kills its role blockers, Arsonist does not. It is also a nerf to Doctor and Crusader that Arsonist gets killed by a Bodyguard and Trapper, but Doctor and Crusader cannot do anything at all, not even protect from the dousing.

'''We think that Arsonist will douse its role blockers upon being role blocked, by an Escort, Consort or Pirate (or Werewolf but I highly doubt both of these predictions will be true simultaneously) and will also douse the Jailor if it is jailed and not executed.  YES YES YES An Arsonist can never ignite if it's being role blocked, however and/or if an Arsonist visits a jailed target, the Arsonist will still douse that jailed target  maybe<and/or Arsonist can no longer be killed by a Bodyguard or Trapper due to its dousings not being actual attacks  TP's should be effective against all NK's. Doctor shoudl probably be albe to affect arso as well.and/or Arsonist gets rid of the wills of the victim it kills ''' No that is way too far. We're not making arso a forger. '''and/or Arsonist will be notified of who is doused everynight in case they are controlled by a Witch/Coven Leader, their target is transported or their are multiple Arsonists in game. ''' A plausible suggestion, I'm not really liking so many mechanics changes but they are decent. Arso's KPN would still be too low probably, so I would rather see stored douses or something instead of mechnics changes.

- '''We think Juggernaut should not die when it is controlled into itself, instead nothing will happen and/or Juggernaut will be Control Immune and/or Juggernaut will actually get an investigative result rather than his just being blank which outs him immediately. Possibly a random generated one, OR a fixed one that does not actually include Juggernaut's name in it, but it's the fixed result. For example, everytime a Juggernaut is investigated they come up as Bodyguard / Godfather / Arsonist / Crusader; their name is not included. Since Investigator is getting reworked this is very highly likely. We also think that Juggernaut scrolls will be made available in the upcoming update.'''

lol idc here

We are excited to see how many of these are accurate, and how accurate they are!

WHAT I"M SUGGESTING IS RANKED WHICH IS WHAT MOST BALANCE CHANGES SHOULD BE BASED ON

Gosh darn it I can't colour in a quote weee.