Board Thread:Role Ideas (Rework)/@comment-37889585-20181224071202/@comment-28112409-20181224092452

Thread Retributionist wrote:

I know this basically makes it an Arsonist rehash but only says Mafia, Neutral, and Town, nothing about Coven :D Oh really now?
 * Re-hashes - Mafia/Neutral versions of Town roles or vice-versa



Now what, ya cheeky cunt?

The Whining

That aside, most of your complaints sound like whining more than they are real issues because HM's actual purpose flew over your head. You say the role almost always dies, well I'd like to hear how that is the case or else you're a bloody hooligan for throwing that out there without substantial evidence or reasoning to support that.

Coven wins before an HM is useful, well that's not really a disadvantage on the HM's side, it just means that the other Coven carried hard or the Town's composed of donkeys, or both. And why would you give a shit anyway? Coven won.

It becomes a Mafioso with detection immunity when buffed by the Necronomicon? Any dumbass can make stupid complaints like that. Watch, I'll do it for ya. CL becomes a Godfather mixed with a Witch, Necromancer becomes a Mafioso with detection immunity, Medusa becomes a WW without the rampage part mixed with a Janitor but without being able to read the actual roles and wills and also unlimited cleans and also doesn't have to stick to full moon nights while also having detection immunity, Poisoner becomes more... poisoning but with detection immunity, and Potion Master becomes a stronger Doctor + Mafioso + Consigliere mix with detection immunity. What's your point?

By Basic Defense evils you mean... exactly 1? I don't know why you'd ever think that Hex Master is meant to kill basic defense evils, because it isn't. And who gives a shit if it's late game? You want NKs and Pestilence/PB dead by the mid or late game depending on how the match goes so you can eliminate the threat. Why is the fact that the killing is late game such a big deal? Then you proceed to contradict that anyway by saying that the Basic Defense evil is usually dead to something else. Make your goddamn mind up, do you think it's for killing those evils or not?

The actual explanation of Hex Master

Now let me tell you what HM is actually about, that being a gap closer and a Sheriff/Investigator counter. All factions except Arsonist have this problem. They keep on killing and they slowly get the Town down to size either to finish them off or gain majority. However, roles the likes of TPs, Vigilantes, Rets and Jailors often make comebacks and the evils get flipped upside down. Evils also lose momentum as the game goes when they lose members, which makes it harder to win because it's harder to gain a majority. They have little to nothing that can close that gap and seal the win, meaning Town always has enough of a time window to mess them over.

HM is the gap closer, because it's setting up the Coven's win for the late game. While the other Coven roles do the bulk of the killing, the HM spends the game working behind the scenes so that the Coven can catch the Town off guard, limiting their time window for action and giving mislynches a greater value. Attemps at raising the KPN above 1 can only carry a faction so far before it loses steam. Medusa has limited gazes, PM has a cooldown, Necromancer is quite limited with the options and depends on the rest of the Coven to enable it, and Poisoner's killing is delayed in addition to being hardcountered by Doctor. The Coven's multi-killing eventually runs out of steam and slows down, they can't keep it up and consistent the whole time, which eventually returns them to the 1 KPN and buys the Town the time they need to pick the Coven bois out one by one.

Hex Master doesn't work when your Coven are a bunch of doofuses, or doofi. Hex Master is a role that the Coven needs to work around to get the best value out of it, it won't get to shine if the rest of the faction doesn't let it or doesn't understand how important the role is to getting the win. The Coven members need to understand that Hex Master is at its strongest in the late game, and that it is capable of sealing wins for the entire faction in the late game as well even if it was left alone. Consequently, they need to keep the heat off of the HM as much as possible and they need to be the front liners here. The most basic thing you can do is simply keep an eye out for who the Coven should be killing according to who the HM hexes. Low threats that can be left to the end of the game are prioritized for a hex while those that need to be killed more urgently do not get hexed, and the efficiency is more than capable of yielding that win.

If the Hex Master's potential is not realized, then you and your Coven are not getting anywhere against any sort of competent town. You either work with the Hex Master or you get your anuses filled with swords, torches and farming equipment.

Second thing is that HM gives a valid excuse against a Sheriff or Investigator that calls you out. Yes you can rely on an NE, but having another outlet is always beneficial to your deceptive capability. It's a much more valid reason than claiming framed simply because hexes are permanent and they're much more likely to remain on living people compared to Arsonist douses since the entirety of the Coven is working in coordination with the HM.

Third thing is the astral visits that come with the Necronomicon, which you completely forgot to address. Astral visits mean middle fingers to all the protectives, Veterans, Lookouts, Werewolves and Pestilence that can be found out there. In addition, HM getting the Necronomicon and the Basic attack power means that the 1 KPN can remain consistent. This is good, because getting closer to your final hex via killing people instead of simply placing a hex and framing is better since you are eliminating your target outright instead of having to worry about what they can do later in the game. By the time you get the Necronomicon, you'd have a good bunch of people hexed already, so getting this minor boost serves the Coven well against the pesky aforementioned roles that can interfere with the final hex setup.

The Suggestion

With all that established and beared in mind now, how good of an idea is it to allow HM to carry out the attack whenever it wants? The answer is simple, it's bullshit.

The Arsonist is alone most of the time, he's an NK after all. Of course the game will have the courtesy to give him options to play however he wants or thinks is viable for him to attain a win. However, Hex Master has 3 Coven members with it, with a wide variety of plays available to them. The Coven's capability to mult-kill comes from them cooperating, none of them can consistently multi-kill on their own. At best, the Medusa can perform multikills if she gets lucky enough alongside the CL helping her but that's about it. You want to make the HM capable of getting immense multi-kills at a consistent rate on her own, in a faction of up to 4, who are already capable of multi-killing?

Do you have any idea- ANY IDEA AT AAAAALL (GoW reference) how absolutely, downright, unbelievably, brokenly overpowered that idea is? You would end up turning Hex Master, a role that raises the skill ceiling for Coven and emphasizes cooperation while yielding an excellent reward for coordinated play, into a role that is so fucking braindead that it might actually dethrone Retribrokenist.

Getting majority becomes so ridiculously easy, that any remaining level of skill in playing Coven is wiped off the face of the Earth because now it creates a free golden ticket for Coven that they will keep using in every game where HM is present. Get a bunch of guaranteed kills, HM pops, majority attained, ez win. Rinse and repeat, same thing, every single game, no skill required whatsoever.

Utter garbage of a rework, should never make it into the game.