Board Thread:Role Ideas (Neutral)/@comment-30757827-20190322205511/@comment-28112409-20190329235339

RedDeathNick wrote: Vertroyer: You make excellent points and i have few disagreements, however i do have some: being lynched, executed, or caught by sheriff is something all evil roles have to deal with (unless you have detection immunity) so i don't see the problem there. Sheriff won't be converted the next day if the cult leader does get lynched. I'm gonna change the role now to be (hopefully) more balanced. Point flew right over your head mate.

All evils have to deal with being lynched and executed, but at least there are several ways to get to them. There's counterclaiming, there's voting for roles, there's checking for the validity of a role claim via will pasting and comparing info or data, there's the entire investigative roster, there's protectives. The town has a chance and the methods to look for any given evil in the game.

To put this in perspective, imagine putting vampires and town in a game where the only solid counter to vampires (Vampire Hunter) doesn't exist. As a townie, you'd be practically guessing with your lynches and executions. You would just randomly kill whoever in hopes of getting the vampires, which links back to my point about how it's either the cultists win in an incredibly OP fashion or the town just get mad lucky because putting cultists against the town is the exact same thing.

With cultists, half the investigatives are worthless against them and none of the aforementioned tactics have any use to them either because the cultists maintain the abilities from their previous town role. Executions and lynches against cultists are practically guesses if the TIs find nothing, which often means that town just loses the game and there was nothing they could do about it. Cultist conversion bypasses both the doc and the bodyguard as well.

In addition, Sheriff is fine with other evils because when you kill them, there's no coming back and you have made permanent progress in eliminating the mafia. As a Sheriff against cultists, you must ​​​​​​​find the cultist leader on your first detection or else you get converted right away and you mean nothing to the town. You're basically relying entirely on luck to find this cutlist leader as a Sheriff, it's either you find him and win the game or you don't and you lose. Binary results, just like how Ret can only be OP or UP in any given game he's present in. Binary results are a complete shitshow and your role inevitably results in exactly that.

There is only one viable way to approach cultists as town, and it is to pray to RNGesus that not only one of your TIs is an Invest/Sheriff/Psychic, but that they also get super lucky and find the cultist leader himself rather than getting some other cultist. Killing a mafia member is good for the town, but killing a cultist is actually a terrible thing for the town because there goes their investigative and they have no way of telling who is what after said investigative gets lynched/converted.

The role's a shitshow because the majority of the town roles are completely irrelevant and worthless sitting ducks against the cultists, only redeemable by pure luck and RNG. There is nothing balanced or enjoyable about playing as, with or especially against a role that is quite literally a coin flip in its results, especially when Pirate has already taken up said spot of a concept and doesn't have to drag everyone into the mess that is conversion.