Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20181230235210/@comment-31256456-20190101001339

SpacedefenderX wrote: Why The Crusader Can Be Useful

1. It's meant to be a half-Doctor.

The Crusader is like it is in order to protect the roles that do amazing jobs in the background. Let's say the Jailor is being protected by a Bodyguard, who is being protected by a Lookout. You guard that Lookout if nothing else can protect it, granting them Powerful defense and attacking those who attempt to do them harm, while the Lookout sits there in contempt.

'''Unfortunately, it does not do that in reality. Unfortunately, it is only effective at doing that role when no one else visits them. This isn't a reliable strategy. Let's say a Mafioso attacks the lookout, and there's a second lookout on the lookout. There is a 50/50 chance of you killing a mafia member. However, there is also a chance that you will kill the second lookout. This is not an effective way of catching mafia members. It also happens to be easy to attack because of its lack of defense and unlike the  BG/Doctor combo cannot rely on other TP in that way. Your whole first argument is all about how it's MEANT to be. The Framer is meant to frame the town, but it does a poor job of doing that. That is the crusader's situation. '''

2. It's meant to kill the evil roles preventing the Town from doing anything.

Roleblockers, controllers, pirates, hexers, framers, cleaners, ect. It's a Town Protective role that can wipe out the side-members of the Mafia or Coven or Neutral Chaos. It may not be able to kill a lot of direct attackers, but if it can diminish the other members of an evil faction, then it still lowers their majority vote from the Town overall.

'''Again, you say MEANT. The RNG random chance makes this an even more risky prospect. If you say you are going to protect a confirmed town, you are likely going to be killed. If you don't say that, you are likely going to kill another TP, or just as likely as killing a mafia member. Every single TK role can also wipe out the other side, and they do it better because they don't rely on random chance to do so. If you are saying that you can protect other members that might be roleblocked, that is an even more risky prospect because it's more likely that more townies will visit your target. For example, let's say you're on a Sheriff. The Investigator goes to the house to check if the results match, the Consort tries to roleblock, and the Lookout is on him. You will 2/3 of the time kill a townie, while leaving that slim 33% chance to attack the Consort. Now you may say "but you can tell town that you're protecting this person". Well, not only does that prevent TI from visiting the Sheriff claim for validity, you have just revealed that you are one of the most coveted roles in town, making you likely to a mafia visit. Plus, the crusader is used in Coven, a tactical gamemode where Coven are more likely to find out your role and find a way to kill you. '''

3. Communication.

The only reason why the Crusader is directly hated on is because there is a lack of communication for who visits what. It kills Townies because it isn't managed correctly. It kills evils when communication is used and the Crusader isn't taken as another Bodyguard.

'''It doesn't, because the evils will never target a person who a crusader says they are going to target, because that's stupid. Instead, they are more likely to kill someone else or the crusader himself. And you have given no situation for this argument. There is no point of refuting it because you have put a claim forward with no evidence to prove it as such. As stated above, saying that you are going to be on someone puts you in a dangerous situation. "But what if you whisper?" Well, again, that is a flawed tactic. Firstly, there's always the chance of a Blackmailer in Custom games, but my main problem with this strategy is that the Coven, if intelligent, will realize something is going on with the whispering and control the Crusader, possibly causing an innocent townie to be killed. Controlling the crusader is an effective way to get rid of townies and also makes it so the coven will not be targeted. On top of that, the crusader can't actually protect himself, which means he's likely to be targeted if vocal, even through whispers. '''

4. It doesn't need a self defense system.

Town Protectives have self defense systems in order to survive a crucial night so they can lynch an evil the following day. The issue is, if nothing can guard that protective, evils won't hesitate to just attack again and kill them. The Crusader doesn't need much against that. Most of the time even, Protectives use their self defense and nothing happens, where it's gone forever and they lost a day of protection for another Townie. The Crusader can protect each night, but at the right time when needed.

'''Crusader does need self protection because it heavily relies on communication, as you stated above, completely denying your point. When you are vocal to the town, you are also relying on a (possibly) impossible RT TP, or you are relying on having a LO on you. LO would rather be on the person you protect which is impossible due to you anyways. Even with a LO on you, a smart Coven/Mafia will figure this out and play around it, controlling the LO somewhere else, and etc. The fact is, this Town Protective is vulnerable to attacks from the coven and cannot be vocal out of fear of being attacked, however, not being vocal means that it is likely to kill another Townie. This means that Crusader is in the unfortunate position of being screwed either way- either way, you're hurting yourself because you have big weaknesses that cannot be mended. The Coven/Mafia will kill you as a TP, leaving you laughably useless as you have nothing to protect yourself while you're protecting the target that will never be visited if you're vocal. If you aren't vocal and you whisper, there's still the chance that you'll kill a townie and you'll likely be visited by Coven or Mafia, to die. '''

5. It's actually better than a Doctor.

A Doctor can heal itself once and prolong the game if they successfully protect someone. Well, the Crusader can do just that, but it can also easily kill the opposing attacker. If the attacker has Basic defense, then it's just protecting his target and prolonging the game, but it also gives a notice that the target was attacked, so the Crusader is confirmed as evils don't generally claim Crusader, like ever. Doctors have a generally slightly harder time to be belived, since anyone can claim healed when attacked and you can't disprove it, unless you are a Spy, but that relies on the odds of bugging.

'''The Crusader has no self defense, meaning that if it reveals itself by being vocal, it dies. If the attacker has basic defense, you're doing the same thing as a doctor, but if there are two targets and one of them has basic defense, you have a 50 percent chance of killing someone who is (likely) innocent, and a 50 percent chance of just being a worse doctor. This isn't good. Just because it can't be claimed easily doesn't make it good, as there is such thing as RT, for example. Confirming yourself does not work because it means you'll probably be killed if you reveal as the Crusader, and if you're saying that LO can help, well Lookouts are generally vocal in this meta, and so the CL is likely to draw them off. Doctor might be an easier claim than Crusader, but it has much more use, and doesn't run the risk of killing so many townies in a game. '''

Summary

Despite the fact that the Crusader can't kill those with defense, and that it has just as an easy chance of killing a Townie as killing an evil, it relies on communication in order to succeed. If correctly used, it can demolish the non-killing roles of other factions, diminishing their overall vote and influence on the game. It seems terrible because it kills Townies as the Crusader had no idea who was going where, but if he does have an idea, he can protect them and not kill a Townie. The RNG factor isn't that great, but if multiple evils visit one protected target, RNG is your best bet.

Despite its negative reputation, it was made to get more influence and communication throughout the Town, and to serve as a combination of Town Protective AND Town Killing. That's better than a Doctor. '''It is not a Town Killing unless if the idea is that you reverse the words and make it Killing Town, because that's what it really does. Crusader is best played when you reveal early, but revealing early basically makes you easy to kill. It rarely kills any evils and when it does it doesn't make up for the 3 lost townies who die. It does not demolish anything because a Coven Leader or Hex Master will be smart enough to know to not target important people, and in that case, it just becomes a worse doctor with a hell lot of a more risk. RNG is not a good bet, it never is. BodyGuard would guaranteed take down one evil, while the Crusader might not at all. This isn't a good role, and it likely will never be due to the flawed mechanics. All of your statements are claims that aren't backed up in practice when you play in real games, and guess what? That's because it usually doesn't kill anyone. Its ability to kill non-killing roles is very much hard to use because non-killing roles are mainly focused on deception  and finding information and love to visit non speakers or vocal town, the very people you would not want to protect. However, let's say you do want to protect like that: Then, you might have a chance to kill the investigator, trying to find out results, or the Sheriff, or the Lookout, or the Escort. All of this is very possible and is why relying on trying to kill non-killing roles is a horrible idea. Don't look at the 33% chance to get an evil and instead look at the potential downsides. It isn't better than a Doctor because at least a Doctor can protect itself for one night if it goes vocal. ​​​​​​​'''

Oh, also, it doesn't die when it kills an evil. The Bodyguard does that. And it still takes another day if a Ret is alive to get them back up. The Crusader can take out two evils in two nights and still live. '''Potentially. Or, you know, some people might be smart and realize that maybe attacking an important target with a TP in game is not the greatest idea. Potential doesn't mean good. The Vigilante has the potential to kill 3 evils.... but it doesn't usually. The BodyGuard might die, but it is guaranteed to kill an evil if it's on a confirmed person (unless if there's an idiot vig) and the Crusader rarely kills any evils, even when played well. '''

By Zed