Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20181230235210/@comment-32329805-20190101212227

Vertroyer wrote: WolfiZee wrote: Response to my research essay on why Jally's arguments are wrong. How is that not an assumption? He said that even if you predict where an evil role is going, you're leaving it to lady luck to decide who to kill. No you're not, if he's the only visitor then you kill the evil role. The assumption already breaks apart right then and there.

Ranked or not Ranked, that doesn't deny the existence of the skill ceiling. The casual modes of the normal game aren't exactly purified from vigilantes random shooting, jailors misexecuting, escorts random blocking completely and other stupid things players do either. '''Yes, indeed. In fact, perhaps i may be judging Coven Ranked Practice players a bit too hard, bringing them to the same standards as Ranked Practice... i do not hold Ranked Practice players to very high standards. '''However, not the role's fault. These are the player's fault and they always will be. Saying that it's a rare occurrence for good players to be good in casual game modes is not a valid reason to say a role is terrible or to request changes from that role. And, that is fair enough. Vig has had a controversial period regarding random shooting but he's still the exact same from then till today, a prime of example of player faults and ignorance not being enough to solicit a change because the role is still balanced above all things

In case you missed it, I was referring to Jally's claim regarding Crusader having a higher chance of hitting Town. HE is looking at it purely from a statistical point of view where he assumes everyone is braindead and random visits for no good reason, which is why he got the results he got. I'M attempting to be more accurate by considering them. '''Which you specifically stated you'd have 0 consideration of in your calculations. I suppose you'd taken that part back at this point. '''I've literally clarified that I am making considerations a few lines after. Most of your criticisms of this section are just misunderstandings. Take those garbage numbers you added out of my math. Side note: Being snarky '''I wasn't attempting to be snarky, either your overreacting to what i said or i'm just an overall doofus. Could be seen as either way. '''while looking like an absolute dumbass with a fatal misinterpretation does not help your case. Hey >:(

You've also only gone out on my usgae of the jailor meta, but that wasn't just what I was using. The jailor meta and the tp/lo meta are separate things. Jailor meta can only be done by the jailor. The tp/lo meta can be done by any townie. Well, you sure made that clear. Any tp/lo request is a clear sign for the Crusader to avoid targeting them and this reduces the chances of a townie being killed. Fair enough.

My point about meta development in Coven Ranked is still valid, as I have stated that if it was given both the time and the activity, it would happen there. This was also done in conjunction with the entire argument at section 2 which assumed a Coven Ranked rolelist since we were looking at it from a balance perspective. Metas and skill are also not exclusive to Ranked, they can be seen and developed in the casual game modes. If we're talking casual game modes anyway, how is that considered a fair judgment of Crusader's capabilities when player flaws inhibit a role's value? The Crusader player sucks dick, the Town sucks dick, doesn't mean the role is in on it too. They just gotta git gud.

Obligatory reminder that your experiences do not generalize to everyone else's. Not everyone is a Gold/Platinum ELO player.

The blank will of a Crusader is not necessarily suspicious, since it is well-known how a badly wielded Crusader harms the Town severely. Not really... In fact, it is completely justified if the Crusader words a good defense. Once again, you can't use player incompetence to blame a role on being bad. A Crusader player is allowed to be good and yield results, once again by simply paying attention to the game and possessing good gamesense, even if it is just a single kill he gets on an evil because that alone means the Crusader has benefited the Town and has already become equal to the BG in terms of value. '''Maybe it's all that i am attempting to balance stuff based on the average player's skill rather then 6000+ ELO Ranked. Which... well, you could see it go either way.'''

No, I will continue satirically insulting everyone I oppose in a debate. Deal with it. The Town doesn't even need to be a bunch of active pros, they just need to be decent enough to claim the usual and give the Crusader something to work with. Which is fair enough. That is more than enough to shift the odds in Crusader's favor. It would be an assumption to say that everyone who plays Town is instantly very good, but it is not an assumption that there will be decent townies nor is it an assumption to say that they are capable of improving.

'''Really, i don't think that Jally's argument is why i dislike  at all. Perhaps it's just the fact that i have negative views of (Out-of-control) RNG in this game, and the fact that Random Chance has a role at all in who you kill, even if situational, is intolerable. In fact, i'd more then support any changes that do nothing rather then eliminate the RNG factor out of the role...​​​​​​​'''