Board Thread:Debate of The Week/@comment-28112409-20171002223259/@comment-31680260-20171008050146

Pokechurin wrote: I'm quoting this because i'm just going to point out some things-

You point out that Potion Master can do the same thing as Coven Leader to counter the consig argument. Well, Potion Master is really not a good replacement for consigliere- only once per 3 nights, making this point completely invalid in my opinion. (What part of "Necronomicon" do you mafs not understand...?) Now you can obviously argue that the Poisoner can actually kill every night, without a doctor, but this is basically a nerfed mafioso/gf (Correction: It's a Mafioso with a delayed kill, giving it a bit of time to get away in case of a Lookout. Furthermore, Trackers will have a harder time pinning this thing down as well.). Okay, you can again say that you can kill 4 people or more per night? Then you are stuck for the next few nights finding out how to kill town as you run out of things to kill with, until you get the necromonicon. (Those 4 kills also bought the Coven some time, so they're still even. And it's not a "4 people per night" guarantee, but the Coven will almost always kill at least equal to the Mafia. Usually more. Necronomicon's also only a 2 night wait, since you get it Night 3 - fairly early on.) The town not knowing how many people will die is not really a disadvantage... you also say the chances of doctor are low in a game, which actually proves one of my points as well: How are you supposed to predict what your coven will be? (Easy. 2 roles are guaranteed to be the CL and Medusa, which provides a source of murder until the CL gets the Necronomicon. The other roles are random, but the same goes for Mafia.) For mafia, every single role can be worked with, but for coven, let's say you have two non threatening roles as your rc, you are dead. (It's a good thing no Coven roles are non-threatening, eh? I'd say the least powerful roles are the Necromancer and the Poisoner, but that's a worst case scenario and they're still killing faster than the Mafia. They've also got a wildcard from the Necromancer, who can pick and choose from the menu of the dead.) Coven Leader itself is a underwhelming role without necromonicon- just a consig mashed with some weird mechanic and voila. (It's a Witch. Witch was a powerful role in Vanilla ToS. It's not a consig. Witch > Consig mate.) but you reveal the presence of a witch as soon as you use it. (Um... there's always a CL in Ranked or RP. Town knows there's a CL before the game even starts.) And your assuming that the town won't gain info while you are sorting out 4 coven. (What do you mean, "sorting out"? Please explain.) There's TI for a reason, you know. (There's a Hex Master for a reason, you know. CL also screws with TI's' results via controlling them.) The Mafia can EASILY change the tides and confuse the town- like my blackmailer games, wheras you COULD theoretically claim doc or invest and get away with it for 2 nights (Theoretically. As you said, it depends on the Town.)- but again, everyone expects a potion master, so they'll be automatically suspicious of your claim. (Not if you're smart about it. Try and make the Town focus on the fact that there's a Poisoner. And most Towns will believe a proven Doc claim after a while, and suspicion slowly diverts from the PM onto someone else. PM can use this strategy to deflect suspicion from the whole Coven, and try to lead mislynches until it's too late for the Town to recover.) Consig isn't as flawed in that sense. (You're telling me that Consigs can claim Investigator happily every game? Not if there's a Spy, that's for damn sure.)  Hex Master is bad, i'm just gonna say it right away. (Nah. FRAMER is bad. Hex Master has her place as both a last resort AND a permanent, multi-person frame. Even if the TI's think someone is hexed, they still can't find the real results.) You can't curse enough people before being caught, and the invest result isn't doing anyone favours either. (Ever heard of claiming to BE hexed? TI's will be MUCH less likely to call someone out for being Coven, since they're outing themselves on the off chance their target wasn't hexed and actually IS Coven.) It's kinda like pac-man in smash 4- a character with a LOT of techs that could in theory destroy anyone, but just doesn't work in practice. (You're thinking too much on her unstoppable attack, but the truth is, Hex Master can be subtle. Hell, she IS subtle, for the reasons explained above. It gives other Coven members an excuse when the Sheriff comes a knockin'.) sorta like coven in general. Medusa is good. just a little suspicious and hard to kill either than the cl tactic- "vet" baiting doesn't work because you'll be caught if town is smart. (Smart Medusae don't bait. They kill the people CL controls until they get the Necronomicon, then go on a rampage through the Town.) You also mention that mafia is "designed" for a weaker game but i personally think most of the new town roles are not that overpowered. (Cough, Pestilence, cough... Juggernaut, cough... TRACKER, which was specifically banned because a reverse Lookout is OP... Yeah, the Coven DO have to deal with more powerful foes.) Oh, and have you heard of Custom? (I have, but that gamemode's unreliable. It depends on the host. Ranked is a good base, since it's balanced and always the same.)

sorry if this was really bad but i was following in order of what u said so that's why it isn't so good 2 read

coven reminds me of ww

mafia reminds me of sk

one more consistent, one has more potential. Jally makes some excellent points- i might change my view in the near future.